Head Gourd Dancer - Page 2

Zotigh · 08-16-2004, 03:39 PM

"Head Gourd Dancer", being a ficticious position to begin with, and with no historical precedence or endowment from the actual Headsmen of the society...I guess you pretty much can to anything with it at any time.

Can a 13 year old be "Head Gourd Dancer"? Sure!

It's a made up title, so I'm guessing anyone can make up any rules for it they care to.

Do we need to encourage this new trend? That would be a good question to discuss, too.

I've been asked many times to be 'Head Gourd Dancer'. I turn them down and give my reason. I'm not comfortable with being appointed by a pow-wow committee to a title that presumes authority that only belongs to the Headsmen. I think that is disrespectful to our leaders.

I understand that many folks do it. I'm just expressing my feelings about it.

ndn_pride · 08-16-2004, 04:05 PM

thank you very much

makesHERlulu · 08-16-2004, 04:45 PM

I got a question for you Kiowa's that say Head Gourd Dancer is not part of the Gourd Clan protocol.

Let's say there is a big pow-wow that has asked you to be Head Gourd Dancer and will provide you a room, gas mileage and $1200 honorarium. Being the hard core Kiowa you are you are going to turn that down?

Please tell me you stick to your guns and say no thank you, it's not my way. LOL

Zotigh · 08-16-2004, 05:58 PM

Many folks can be 'bought out', as in your example. But, what does that have to do with the fact that "Head Gourd Dancer" is not part of the Gourd Dance?

And, thank you for pointing out what probably is one of the real reasons such a position was thought up. Money. :P

As for me, I'd still not take the job.

WhoMe · 08-16-2004, 06:11 PM

Money cannot buy integrity and character.

If you are, who you say you are . . . then you can't be bought. Gourd dance is a part of Zotigh's family and tribal history.

He is not a sell-out!

There needs to be more like him.

But . . .

If you want him to makeYOUlulu. . .

It CAN be arranged!

L

j/k

Rides the Wind · 08-17-2004, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zotigh

Many folks can be 'bought out', as in your example. But, what does that have to do with the fact that "Head Gourd Dancer" is not part of the Gourd Dance?

And, thank you for pointing out what probably is one of the real reasons such a position was thought up. Money. :P

As for me, I'd still not take the job.

HAA KAIWA HAITTSI,

I salute you!!!

makesHERlulu · 08-17-2004, 04:12 PM

High fives them two "pah-bees" for sticking to their guns.

HAW!

Now I guess I'll go ask someone else to be head gourd dancer for a $1200 honorarium..lol

Zotigh · 08-17-2004, 05:00 PM

I'm curious, makesHERlulu....what is it that a "Head Gourd Dancer" does?

I've seen many, but...other than having that title, they all just danced like everyone else. In your mind, what job do they perform?

CHEROSAGE · 08-18-2004, 12:55 AM

I'd like to try at ths (?).
I believe that the Head Gourd dancers position is, as expected, to help the committee maintain order and consistancy, if that is possible.
I have been asked to help some committees as their Head Gourd dancer, I did agree to help.
I believe that I should help by standing at the appropriate time in a song, telling the men not to wear their hats, and act properly. Often, I think, this position is also doubled as the head veteran dancer. This may not be all that a committee may expect of the Head Gourd dancer but this is a start.

powwowbum49 · 08-18-2004, 01:53 AM

First off I am not Kiowa...I just been running with them forever and have been taken as family by a few Kiowa folks. Now with that said let me chime in far from the motherland of Gourd dancing.

I would have to say that the "head Gourd Dancer' position is used like any of the other head dancers positions. What I mean by that is, that the committee expects the person they ask to draw others to support that person and thus support their dance. No, there are no extra duties that this person does other than maybe starting off a set of songs and that is just based on the curtesy of the other dancers.

There is another trend that I have seen that I prefer over the 'head gourd dancer' position. it is committee's asking a group (society/clan whatever they call themselves) to be the host organization. I find it a much better idea, to ask a group ask to be the host rather than an individual being asked to be the head dancers. I find it more in line with what I know of the origins of gourd dancing to have a hosting group rather than an individual dancer as a suedo headsman. It seems to fit more in line than singling out a specific dancer.

makesHERlulu · 08-18-2004, 12:52 PM

Zotigh:

I have no idea, I was just curious as to how you would answer that question. I guess the same could be said for Head Dancers what the heck is their role at a pow-wow?

I can see getting such Head staffs at benefit dances when there is little participation.

I think it is better for gourd dancing anyways to utilize Gourd Clans (clubs, societies whatever) to be a host.

I don't know why I'm even throwing my 2 cents in here as (I) we do not have any association with gourd dancing. I was just reading and basically reading about all the abuse towards this dance. Things being made up and such. I was bored as hell and wanted to ask the Kiowa's who were responding on this thread their thoughts and you held to your beliefs and for that "kudos to you".

I'm outtie...........

Zotigh · 08-18-2004, 03:02 PM

It's our own fault, I guess.

Since it is bad manners to tell another warrior what to do, most Gourd Dancers that know what is going on just go about their way when seeing folks with ball caps on, or folks sticking to the edges and dancing in place, or folks war dancing around the drum, or folks all trying to synchronize their standing up and dancing, or folks doing any of the strange new things.

Unless there is a Headsman of the society at the session, Gourd Dancers will stand to dance when they are ready. Not by watching someone, and not by waiting for some specific point in a song. They stand to dance simply when they feel ready. When a Headsman is present, however, a Gourd Dancer will show their respect by waiting for that person to rise first. Which is why many Gourd Dancers find it insulting to have a pow-wow committee appoint a pseudo-headsman (Head Gourd Dancer) position. It shows little respect for the leaders of the Gourd Clan to do so.

You won't see any Gourd Dancers wearing a ball caps, t-shirts or tennis shoes to dance.

You won't see any Gourd Dancers just standing in place dancing the whole session.

You won't see Gourd Dancers following any certain direction on the dance floor. (Although they do have to try to avoid tripping over the drum hazard some folks put in the middle.)

The Gourd Dance has morphed into what it is today because it is impolite to tell others what to do. (Unless you are a wife/mother/grandma...then it's expected. hehehe)

Gourd Dancers lead by example.

That leaves it to those who don't mind being impolite to perpetuate the customs they've mimicked and made up colorful reasons for.

Leadership by example, when not many are paying attention, has lead to many of the changes to our Gourd Dance.

Kio-Manche · 08-18-2004, 09:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zotigh

It's our own fault, I guess.

Since it is bad manners to tell another warrior what to do, most Gourd Dancers that know what is going on just go about their way when seeing folks with ball caps on, or folks sticking to the edges and dancing in place, or folks war dancing around the drum, or folks all trying to synchronize their standing up and dancing, or folks doing any of the strange new things.

Unless there is a Headsman of the society at the session, Gourd Dancers will stand to dance when they are ready. Not by watching someone, and not by waiting for some specific point in a song. They stand to dance simply when they feel ready. When a Headsman is present, however, a Gourd Dancer will show their respect by waiting for that person to rise first. Which is why many Gourd Dancers find it insulting to have a pow-wow committee appoint a pseudo-headsman (Head Gourd Dancer) position. It shows little respect for the leaders of the Gourd Clan to do so.

You won't see any Gourd Dancers wearing a ball caps, t-shirts or tennis shoes to dance.

You won't see any Gourd Dancers just standing in place dancing the whole session.

You won't see Gourd Dancers following any certain direction on the dance floor. (Although they do have to try to avoid tripping over the drum hazard some folks put in the middle.)

The Gourd Dance has morphed into what it is today because it is impolite to tell others what to do. (Unless you are a wife/mother/grandma...then it's expected. hehehe)

Gourd Dancers lead by example.

That leaves it to those who don't mind being impolite to perpetuate the customs they've mimicked and made up colorful reasons for.

Leadership by example, when not many are paying attention, has lead to many of the changes of our Gourd Dance.

Great Post Zotigh!! I have a friend who gourd dances, and he does it "different" than us. I.E. Jeans, boots, cowboy hat, no blanket, NAC gourd, stays at the edges,.....etc. etc. etc.
I was taught though, to lead by example, but theres this part of me that wants to say, "Hey! Thats not appropriate!" But I bite my tongue, and do what you described in your post.
I wonder if the Head Gourd dancer craze came from what you described as waiting for the headsman to stand up first out of respect for him. Perhaps someone observed it, and decided that that's what we were doing. I don't know. But that could be where it came from. Of course, there is no telling.
Thanks for your post, It is appreciated.....
Numunu1971

TacO5000 · 08-19-2004, 12:19 AM

being that we are Kiowa's and have our ways and being very stingy with our cerimonie's and such(The Gourd Dance is one of cerimonies that got away). you ppl have to understand why lil things upset us....... The Gourd dance is Kiowa point blank..... The Songs are Kiowa....... Thier are certian gourd dance protcals that Kiowa Gourd Clan members adhear to, like when we have our celebrations there will be no one sitting down(every body dances) thats what you are there to do..... The clothing....... the men wear slacks or leggens and moccosins or dress shoes, like numunu said he see his friend doing things other that the Kiowa Way, he bites his toung to be polite.

How do you think it makes Kiowas feel to see some ppl taking our dances and doing things wrong, like taking a head Gourd Dancers postion? I wish ppl if they are gonna do other ppls dance do it in the right manner..... How would you feel is some else got a hold of one of your tribes dance and twisted it??

Zotigh, Whome, and Numunu1971 are members of the

08-16-2004, 03:39 PM	#21 (permalink)
Zotigh USMC Join Date: May 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 281	"Head Gourd Dancer", being a ficticious position to begin with, and with no historical precedence or endowment from the actual Headsmen of the society...I guess you pretty much can to anything with it at any time. Can a 13 year old be "Head Gourd Dancer"? Sure! It's a made up title, so I'm guessing anyone can make up any rules for it they care to. Do we need to encourage this new trend? That would be a good question to discuss, too. I've been asked many times to be 'Head Gourd Dancer'. I turn them down and give my reason. I'm not comfortable with being appointed by a pow-wow committee to a title that presumes authority that only belongs to the Headsmen. I think that is disrespectful to our leaders. I understand that many folks do it. I'm just expressing my feelings about it. __________________ Scott Zotigh Kiowa Black Leggings Kiowa Gourd Clan Kiowa Tiah Piah Kiowa Marine Veterans American Indian Veterans

08-16-2004, 04:05 PM	#22 (permalink)
ndn_pride Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Ponca City, Ok Posts: 36	thank you very much __________________

08-16-2004, 05:58 PM	#24 (permalink)
Zotigh USMC Join Date: May 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 281	Many folks can be 'bought out', as in your example. But, what does that have to do with the fact that "Head Gourd Dancer" is not part of the Gourd Dance? And, thank you for pointing out what probably is one of the real reasons such a position was thought up. Money. :P As for me, I'd still not take the job. __________________ Scott Zotigh Kiowa Black Leggings Kiowa Gourd Clan Kiowa Tiah Piah Kiowa Marine Veterans American Indian Veterans

08-16-2004, 06:11 PM	#25 (permalink)
WhoMe PauWau Coordinator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Land of 370 Broken Treaties Posts: 5,555	Money cannot buy integrity and character. If you are, who you say you are . . . then you can't be bought. Gourd dance is a part of Zotigh's family and tribal history. He is not a sell-out! There needs to be more like him. But . . . If you want him to makeYOUlulu. . . It CAN be arranged! L j/k __________________ "Today, recognizing and respecting the origins of powwow aids in our Cultural Survival. If enough people break the rules because they are not satisfied...."We will have no culture." WhoMe

08-17-2004, 05:00 PM	#28 (permalink)
Zotigh USMC Join Date: May 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 281	I'm curious, makesHERlulu....what is it that a "Head Gourd Dancer" does? I've seen many, but...other than having that title, they all just danced like everyone else. In your mind, what job do they perform? __________________ Scott Zotigh Kiowa Black Leggings Kiowa Gourd Clan Kiowa Tiah Piah Kiowa Marine Veterans American Indian Veterans

08-16-2004, 04:45 PM	#23 (permalink)
makesHERlulu Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 92	I got a question for you Kiowa's that say Head Gourd Dancer is not part of the Gourd Clan protocol. Let's say there is a big pow-wow that has asked you to be Head Gourd Dancer and will provide you a room, gas mileage and $1200 honorarium. Being the hard core Kiowa you are you are going to turn that down? Please tell me you stick to your guns and say no thank you, it's not my way. LOL

08-17-2004, 04:12 PM	#27 (permalink)
makesHERlulu Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 92	High fives them two "pah-bees" for sticking to their guns. HAW! Now I guess I'll go ask someone else to be head gourd dancer for a $1200 honorarium..lol

08-18-2004, 12:55 AM	#29 (permalink)
CHEROSAGE Pow Wow Committee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: , mo Posts: 1,341	I'd like to try at ths (?). I believe that the Head Gourd dancers position is, as expected, to help the committee maintain order and consistancy, if that is possible. I have been asked to help some committees as their Head Gourd dancer, I did agree to help. I believe that I should help by standing at the appropriate time in a song, telling the men not to wear their hats, and act properly. Often, I think, this position is also doubled as the head veteran dancer. This may not be all that a committee may expect of the Head Gourd dancer but this is a start. __________________ BOB

08-18-2004, 01:53 AM	#30 (permalink)
powwowbum49 Arena Director Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: midwest, USA Posts: 810	First off I am not Kiowa...I just been running with them forever and have been taken as family by a few Kiowa folks. Now with that said let me chime in far from the motherland of Gourd dancing. I would have to say that the "head Gourd Dancer' position is used like any of the other head dancers positions. What I mean by that is, that the committee expects the person they ask to draw others to support that person and thus support their dance. No, there are no extra duties that this person does other than maybe starting off a set of songs and that is just based on the curtesy of the other dancers. There is another trend that I have seen that I prefer over the 'head gourd dancer' position. it is committee's asking a group (society/clan whatever they call themselves) to be the host organization. I find it a much better idea, to ask a group ask to be the host rather than an individual being asked to be the head dancers. I find it more in line with what I know of the origins of gourd dancing to have a hosting group rather than an individual dancer as a suedo headsman. It seems to fit more in line than singling out a specific dancer. __________________ PB49 "Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once we grow up." Pablo Picasso My comments are based on what I have been taught and my experiences over the years I have been around the circle. They should in no way be taken as gospel truths and are merely my opinions or attempts at passing on what I have learned while still learning more.

08-18-2004, 12:52 PM	#31 (permalink)
makesHERlulu Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Jun 2004 Posts: 92	Zotigh: I have no idea, I was just curious as to how you would answer that question. I guess the same could be said for Head Dancers what the heck is their role at a pow-wow? I can see getting such Head staffs at benefit dances when there is little participation. I think it is better for gourd dancing anyways to utilize Gourd Clans (clubs, societies whatever) to be a host. I don't know why I'm even throwing my 2 cents in here as (I) we do not have any association with gourd dancing. I was just reading and basically reading about all the abuse towards this dance. Things being made up and such. I was bored as hell and wanted to ask the Kiowa's who were responding on this thread their thoughts and you held to your beliefs and for that "kudos to you". I'm outtie...........

08-18-2004, 03:02 PM	#32 (permalink)
Zotigh USMC Join Date: May 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 281	It's our own fault, I guess. Since it is bad manners to tell another warrior what to do, most Gourd Dancers that know what is going on just go about their way when seeing folks with ball caps on, or folks sticking to the edges and dancing in place, or folks war dancing around the drum, or folks all trying to synchronize their standing up and dancing, or folks doing any of the strange new things. Unless there is a Headsman of the society at the session, Gourd Dancers will stand to dance when they are ready. Not by watching someone, and not by waiting for some specific point in a song. They stand to dance simply when they feel ready. When a Headsman is present, however, a Gourd Dancer will show their respect by waiting for that person to rise first. Which is why many Gourd Dancers find it insulting to have a pow-wow committee appoint a pseudo-headsman (Head Gourd Dancer) position. It shows little respect for the leaders of the Gourd Clan to do so. You won't see any Gourd Dancers wearing a ball caps, t-shirts or tennis shoes to dance. You won't see any Gourd Dancers just standing in place dancing the whole session. You won't see Gourd Dancers following any certain direction on the dance floor. (Although they do have to try to avoid tripping over the drum hazard some folks put in the middle.) The Gourd Dance has morphed into what it is today because it is impolite to tell others what to do. (Unless you are a wife/mother/grandma...then it's expected. hehehe) Gourd Dancers lead by example. That leaves it to those who don't mind being impolite to perpetuate the customs they've mimicked and made up colorful reasons for. Leadership by example, when not many are paying attention, has lead to many of the changes to our Gourd Dance. __________________ Scott Zotigh Kiowa Black Leggings Kiowa Gourd Clan Kiowa Tiah Piah Kiowa Marine Veterans American Indian Veterans Last edited by Zotigh; 08-18-2004 at 10:45 PM.