Mato Winyan

I want to offer my apologies here for stepping in since I'm a woman and not a gourd dancer and these aren't my ways. With that being said I had the thought.... (here comes more apples and oranges..just bear with me *lol* )

In a main stream chruch a woman may wear jeans to church but that is not the norm nor is it really appropriate. In some churches it may be tolerated but still is looked down upon. Seems to me this is the same kind of thing here. While some things MAY be done by SOME people..... it is not the norm ... nor is it considered acceptable. Just a thought.

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"We see it as a desecration not only of a mountain but of our way of life. This is a genocidal issue to us. If they kill this mountain, they kill our way of life." ~Debra White Plume

Redstone

I'd have to agree with Scott, Josiah, and Cherosage. And Mato Winyan, thank you for your post too.

Scott thank you for the pictures, some sharp looking dressers there.

Usually when I am back home for one of our dances, this year the Comanche Fair, our family picks one of the sessions, of which we will dress out in our regalia, tabs, and black shawl. The other days, it is dress slacks or dress dockers. And you won't see me in short sleeves either, despite the fact that I am not use to the weather anymore having lived in the NW for 30 years. Heaven forbid if I wear shorts and a T-shirt as my 89 year old aunt would snatch me bald in front of everyone, and rightly so.

Has not this discussion been in a previous thread?

That's my two cents.

Mr Bo Jangles

I had a lengthy comment, basically, pointing out that folks are dressing more like Kiowa Gourd Dancers nowadays.

A good thing? A bad thing?

...I could care less.



..anywy. I cited instances in the 1980s and early 90's where prominent and not so prominent individuals wore NO SHIRTS, or short sleeved t's or wife beaters, and swimming trunks and tennis shoes when they danced gourd at their tribes annual...........and............no one said a thing. Hell, there were others there doin the same thing.


Another thing.

People dress up for each other, to impress others around them. Personal adornment is nothing new to human kind....hell, Neanderthals were doing it a good third of a million years before we got here.

Personally, I believe God could care less what you've got on when you enter into a church.

Hell, you came into this World with nothing.

....why put on aires.

__________________
"This next song goes out to some girls in dot com. They don't know who they are, but, it doesn't really matter anyway."




"When the God's wish to punish us, they grant our prayers."

O. Wilde

Redstone

Well Bo no disrespect, but if you could care less then why was the question even posed? I only gave my thoughts as to the way I was raised.

As to your observations of what a few individual did in the 80's or 90's I can't vouch for but neither have I observed those things back home. Grant you I only get home a couple times a year. I can only state what I have seen and what I was told. As whether a person is out to impress that is a matter of opinion. Alot of families take pride in their dances and in doing so they take pride in their traditional clothes. There are no aires putting on, as a person should always try to remain humble when entering the arena. Not everyone can afford to, and it doesn't mean its expected. But you can take pride in what you wear and what may be deemed appropriate.

I am not sure of your equating the dance as to entering church, and I don't know if I did so myself in any post before, if so it was not intended to be interpreted that way.

I realize that reading a post in black and white is harder to interpret, and at times can come across harsh, so I will give the benefit as it being normal conversation. As well as I wasn't sure who your post was directed at. Certainly not looking for any hard feelings towards anyone.

Zotigh

The fact that you had a "lengthy comment" about it would make us all think that you indeed care. Gourd Dance is a Kiowa dance. Folks dressing more like Kiowa Gourd dancers nowadays would be woohoo! not boohoo.

And, regardless of you caring less or not....we care.


You won't find many native men that will tell another man what to do, bud. Grandmothers may pinch our ears and tell us what we are doing wrong, but men don't find it comfortable to tell another man what to do. No one is telling you how to dress for Gourd Dance, either. Just telling you why we dress the way we do and why. The way I read your observation about folks not telling them anything and the way you interpret that is waaaaay different from us.

Maybe that's the way your Neanderthal relatives take dressing....but, as pointed out in the posts above...we take the dressing up as showing respect for the folks sharing the experience of our heritage with us, and to honour those who preserved and perpetuated our customs. I know my grandparents would be pleased with me dressing my best and would be not so happy with me dressing in t-shirts and tennis shoes to dance. You faulting that preference is faulting our families. It's gonna rub us wrong. And, personally...I think you are wrong. Showing respect for others by dressing nicely whether at a wedding or Gourd Dance is indeed appropriate.


Says the guy whose signature praises the beadwork of another. Likes the way it looks. You argue that it don't matter how we look. Hypocrite?

And, how God got into the issue of us dressing our best for Gourd Dance is beyond me.

You'll dress however you like. No one here is telling you how to dress. Just explaining why we dress the way we do, and why.

__________________
Scott Zotigh
Kiowa Black Leggings
Kiowa Gourd Clan
Kiowa Tiah Piah
Kiowa Marine Veterans
American Indian Veterans

Mr Bo Jangles

You resort to name calling to get your point across.

Makes sense to me that you're incapable of carrying on a decent conversation with anyone without having to resort such measures.

....further tells me it's not worth responding to your accusations or to whatever else you have to say.

Am I pissed?

No.

Upset?

No.

I just don't care to waste any of my time with responding to you, other than in this one post.

How you react to what I've seen in videos, is up to you.

Just direct your anger, frustration, etc......at the right people.

You're fellow Oklahomans.

I didn't call anyone anything derogatory, didn't say anything in a negative tone.

Just pointed out some personal observations.

Which, are up for interpretation by ANYONE.


I never said there was anything wrong with the way you're people dress. ...or with the way anyone dresses.

The allusion to Neanderthals was simply to point out a fact. People, or Neanderthals, have been adorning themselves for whatever reason for eons. Could mean something, could just be we like shiney, dangley things.

Whatever.

Apparently you took it to mean I was calling Kiowa's Neanderthals.

...well, wasn't my intent.

Far from it.

Like I said, I could care less.

It matters not to me in the least bit.

Good day.

__________________
"This next song goes out to some girls in dot com. They don't know who they are, but, it doesn't really matter anyway."




"When the God's wish to punish us, they grant our prayers."

O. Wilde

Nathan11

this is getting interesting..haha just kidding dont rip my head off guys.. whenever i go out to gourd dance, i wear either a long sleeve, button-up shirt with a beaded polo tie, or a ribbon shirt with a scarf and my waterbird slide, with a bandolier, beaded pouch (to carry the dollar bills), and my sash. I wear my best pair of jeans (i know i shouldn't but i dont have leggings although i am planning on make a pair sometime soon) and my moccasins too.

2kiowa4u

hah-bay-tah, i'm glad all of take interest in the KIOWA GOURD DANCE, KIOWA TDIAH-THDAH-PAY-GOON, this is 2kiowa4u and is proud that you love to dance our dance. AAAAhoooo!!!

2kiowa4u

Again, I'm Honored That You All Take Interest In The Kiowa Gourd Dance. We Dress The Way We Do Because That's The Way Our (ah-pah-bee, Great-grandfather), (kone-geah,grandfather), (thah-tho, Father) And Our Ancient Foretathers That Lived Way Back North From Our Original Homelands In West-side Of Canadian Rockies To The Great Plains Of Oklahoma. Sure There Is Some Adaptations But Very Few,but, A Lot Of What We Call (hawn-kyah-gah) Try To Put Their Own Tribal Traditions To Our Dance. Or Go To The Point And Say This Is Our Dance, But, This Dance Belongs To The Kiowa People, Especially The Family Of Red Wolf (kau-ee-goodle-they). First Of All God Gave This Dance To The Kiowa People Through Red Wolf And I Know That It Does Matter To God What You Wear. In The Old Testament In The Bible The High Priest Prepared Themselves Before Talking To God. So In The Same Essence This Is Why We As Kiowa (kau-ee-goo) Dress In This Manner. And Also The Way We Sing Our Songs In The Manner That We Do, There Are Songs That Tells About Battles,skirmishes And Some Songs Tell About If They Didn't Make It Back From Warfare To Continue On Because Life Does Go On Here In This World And The World To Come.
Hah-bay-tah, Thone-gyah!!!!!!

Zotigh

I like the way you spell out our tribe. I've used "Kaw-eh-goo" in trying to sound out our name. It is very heartening to have folks like you that know that the phrase, 'Kiowa' has three syllables in our language. I see, "koi-gu" used often. Yeah..that's close, I guess. But, I like your writing of our name better.

I don't know who you are, 2kiowa4u. Or rather, I don't know if I know you..but, I hope you are passing on your knowledge of our language. We need you. And, it is comforting just to know you are here.

Thank you.

__________________
Scott Zotigh
Kiowa Black Leggings
Kiowa Gourd Clan
Kiowa Tiah Piah
Kiowa Marine Veterans
American Indian Veterans

Zotigh

Koy-goo. Carp-people.

ROFLOL


Just kidding.

::runs and hides::

__________________
Scott Zotigh
Kiowa Black Leggings
Kiowa Gourd Clan
Kiowa Tiah Piah
Kiowa Marine Veterans
American Indian Veterans