Societies - Page 2

GrayDog · 10-05-2004, 02:52 PM

Thank you for your reply. It is refreshing to get an honest answer without first being accused of "stealing" this or that and not being interested in ones own heritage.Gourd dancing is very special and honorable and I admire and respect the Kiowa, and all others who are dancing with a good heart and intentions. I ask these questions inorder to not offend anyone by my ignorance. Intertribal here in N. Cal. is a fact, a reality, and isn't going to go away. So I am trying to learn the correct way to do things. Thanks again for clearing up some questions I had...what a beautiful baby! Way to go!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numunu1971

Graydog,
I enjoyed reading your post.... seeing how its done elsewhere. I live in N. Oklahoma, grew up in S. Oklahoma, and we do it a bit different here. We generally have benches around the arena where we sit, and we pretty much sit where ever we want. (If one side of the arena happens to have shade, we tend to conglomerate). At many powwows, the drum may be at the side of the arena, so we just move around wherever the spirit moves us too. (Drum stalkers tend to look confused at this) Here, we stay seated during the first song until the drum "steps on it". Then we generally wait for the headsman to start dancing, and if there is no headsman, we start dancing simply when we're ready. I know nothing of the four directional corners, but there is a store on Hwy. 177 that we all call four corners. j/k.
The Buffalo dance is done here usually as the final dance at some powwows. And here in Oklahoma, esp. Carnegie, you will here the wolf howls, and I think that is because this is the birthplace of the gourd dance, and many here understand and know history and the ettiquette of gourd dance, as well as the songs. We have some excellent drums here in Oklahoma, and alot of informed people.
Numunu1971

GrayDog · 10-05-2004, 02:57 PM

One last question and then I will part ways with you. I read the article you posted about the origins of the gourd dance. Very interesting. I did read where the Red Wolf gave the Kiowa the gourd dance. I didn't read where the Red Wolf said not to share it with other tribes! And if it was only meant for the Kiowa, where did the Kiowa get the right to share it only with others they chose?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zotigh

:)

A gourd dance song without the howl at the end would only be an empty gesture.

Thank you, NDNTacO49.

Zotigh · 10-07-2004, 01:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrayDog

One last question and then I will part ways with you. I did read where the Red Wolf gave the Kiowa the gourd dance. I didn't read where the Red Wolf said not to share it with other tribes!

So, since the Red Wolf didn't say, "Don't throw children from a moving car", it obviously means he meant for us to do so.

LOL

Weird logic.

You could make any lifestyle you chose from what the Red Wolf did NOT say, bud. And...you are evidently doing so.

Zotigh · 10-07-2004, 01:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrayDog

...where did the Kiowa get the right to share it only with others they chose?

ROFLOL

"The guy who gives something to someone else....dang...who gave him the right NOT to give it to someone else??!!"

LOL

Again...faulty logic.

Zotigh · 10-07-2004, 01:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GrayDog

One last question and then I will part ways with you.

I have a feeling that this too is not accurate.

Kio-Manche · 11-10-2004, 02:46 AM

I wonder how many gourd dance societies there are? I have done research on the internet, and have come across a few. I looked on the Gathering of Nations website at the pictures from the Gourd dance theyhave there. I seen lots of people wearing hats. Heck, I seen lots of people period. I don't know if I would want to participate in something like that. It just seems too big. How could you hear the dang drum? And I imagine the crowd noise would be bothersome. But then again, I haven't ever been there. Have any of you guys been there?
I enjoy the gourd dancing here in Oklahoma...especially at our homecoming. And the drums here, especially Cozad, I think a good drum makes a big difference. I like that YellowHammer drum too. And NoShame....good stuff....

sltate · 11-10-2004, 11:46 AM

Well, I would like to throw a question in here. Now, this is just a "what do think" question, so don't get upset with me.
I was told, by elders of the Comanche tribe, that the gourd dance and its songs originally belonged to the comanches. I was told that they have societies that dance this dance. My late father in law, Doc Tate Nevaquaya, was instrumental in reviving the Comanche Little Ponies way back when.
Now, I understand that every tribe has its history in reference to this dance and I respect that. I just want to throw out there what I was told. My late father, Ronnie Harris, Sr, was initiated into the Kiowa TiaPiah Society in the early 70's and my adopted dad, Walter Kaulaity is a prominent member of the Kiowa Gourd Clan...so I am familiar with the dance.
Is it true that Comanche had horses before the Kiowas? Give me some feedback please.

GrayDog · 11-10-2004, 02:07 PM

Thank you for a very informative answer.Thank you for not calling me a theif and understanding that I am just trying to learn. Gourd dancing does exist here in N. Cal. and it is getting more popular every Pow Wow season. I recently spoke to an Otoe-Missourian Elder (Herchel,70's) and he says he was in Oklahoma in the early 50's when gourd was resurrected. Says the beginning members met in his parents basement. Anyways, he's here in N. Cal. and sits as head singer at "Strictly Southern",a drum comprised of all Kiowa singers. Herchel says he follows the Cheyene style and not the Kiowa. He is a much respected Elder out here and often gets angered by some of the "Open" and socieity gourd dancers for not doing gourd in what he says is the proper way. I dance the way he has taught me and the way that I have read about here on the net. I will continue to gourd dance and will do my best to dance it in a way that is traditional,respectful and with honor. Gourd dancing out here is spreading evey year and isn't going to go away. I will continue to try and pass on the teachings I have learned.
Thank you again for your very informative answer...I will dance in this way and will try my best to do so honorable. Thank you again...Wado

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numunu1971

Graydog,
I enjoyed reading your post.... seeing how its done elsewhere. I live in N. Oklahoma, grew up in S. Oklahoma, and we do it a bit different here. We generally have benches around the arena where we sit, and we pretty much sit where ever we want. (If one side of the arena happens to have shade, we tend to conglomerate). At many powwows, the drum may be at the side of the arena, so we just move around wherever the spirit moves us too. (Drum stalkers tend to look confused at this) Here, we stay seated during the first song until the drum "steps on it". Then we generally wait for the headsman to start dancing, and if there is no headsman, we start dancing simply when we're ready. I know nothing of the four directional corners, but there is a store on Hwy. 177 that we all call four corners. j/k.
The Buffalo dance is done here usually as the final dance at some powwows. And here in Oklahoma, esp. Carnegie, you will here the wolf howls, and I think that is because this is the birthplace of the gourd dance, and many here understand and know history and the ettiquette of gourd dance, as well as the songs. We have some excellent drums here in Oklahoma, and alot of informed people.
Numunu1971

GrayDog · 11-10-2004, 02:10 PM

If something belongs to a collective group (tribe) then shouldn't the collective group be the ones to decide who gives something away! Not an individual. Good logic!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zotigh

ROFLOL

"The guy who gives something to someone else....dang...who gave him the right NOT to give it to someone else??!!"

LOL

Again...faulty logic.

Zotigh · 11-10-2004, 07:52 PM

Societies

LSS · 11-10-2004, 08:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Numunu1971

Graydog,
I enjoyed reading your post.... seeing how its done elsewhere. I live in N. Oklahoma, grew up in S. Oklahoma, and we do it a bit different here. We generally have benches around the arena where we sit, and we pretty much sit where ever we want. (If one side of the arena happens to have shade, we tend to conglomerate). At many powwows, the drum may be at the side of the arena, so we just move around wherever the spirit moves us too. (Drum stalkers tend to look confused at this) Here, we stay seated during the first song until the drum "steps on it". Then we generally wait for the headsman to start dancing, and if there is no headsman, we start dancing simply when we're ready. I know nothing of the four directional corners, but there is a store on Hwy. 177 that we all call four corners. j/k.
The Buffalo dance is done here usually as the final dance at some powwows. And here in Oklahoma, esp. Carnegie, you will here the wolf howls, and I think that is because this is the birthplace of the gourd dance, and many here understand and know history and the ettiquette of gourd dance, as well as the songs. We have some excellent drums here in Oklahoma, and alot of informed people.
Numunu1971

Numunu...thanks for posting. I've never heard it explained so descriptively! Reading your post made me think of the 1 on 1 special that was done for the Head Lady at the Great Saltwater Pow Wow in North Carolina this past weekend.

Thanks for keeping those memories going!

LSS

Kio-Manche · 11-10-2004, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LSS

Numunu...thanks for posting. I've never heard it explained so descriptively! Reading your post made me think of the 1 on 1 special that was done for the Head Lady at the Great Saltwater Pow Wow in North Carolina this past weekend.

Thanks for keeping those memories going!

LSS

Your welcome LovesSouthernSinging! By the way, I love Southern Singing as well...:) This Gourd dance threads been quiet for awhile, thought I would shake it like my gourd, get some life back into it ay!
Numunu

LSS · 11-11-2004, 08:51 PM

Aye!!!!!!!!!

CHEROSAGE · 11-12-2004, 02:07 AM

Glad we can talk about these things instead of bickering about who has the right to dance and who doesn't.

I think we should educate instead of belittling. Those that probably shouldn't, do. We should just educate them and hope they learn something. Maybe someday they will learn that they aren't doing things right and start.

By the way congrats, WhoMe.

11-10-2004, 02:46 AM	#26 (permalink)
Kio-Manche a.k.a Numunu1971 Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Ponca City, Ok. Born and Raised in Lawton Ok. Posts: 1,603	Societies I wonder how many gourd dance societies there are? I have done research on the internet, and have come across a few. I looked on the Gathering of Nations website at the pictures from the Gourd dance theyhave there. I seen lots of people wearing hats. Heck, I seen lots of people period. I don't know if I would want to participate in something like that. It just seems too big. How could you hear the dang drum? And I imagine the crowd noise would be bothersome. But then again, I haven't ever been there. Have any of you guys been there? I enjoy the gourd dancing here in Oklahoma...especially at our homecoming. And the drums here, especially Cozad, I think a good drum makes a big difference. I like that YellowHammer drum too. And NoShame....good stuff.... __________________ Kio-Manche Oklahoma Proud!!!

11-10-2004, 07:52 PM	#30 (permalink)
Zotigh USMC Join Date: May 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 281	Societies __________________ Scott Zotigh Kiowa Black Leggings Kiowa Gourd Clan Kiowa Tiah Piah Kiowa Marine Veterans American Indian Veterans

11-11-2004, 08:51 PM	#33 (permalink)
LSS Sappling! Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 870	Aye!!!!!!!!! __________________ To get a true picture of your purpose in life, you only get the whole picture when you listen with your mind, your ears and your heart. This way The Creator has a direct connection with you and only you...no outside interference. When you follow the will of IT that created you, understanding that your purpose is not for you...but for IT and all that IT has created, there can be no wrong except failure to be obedient. Only then do we jeopardize the gifts we are given. Its not the final destination that defines us, rather the journey taken!

11-12-2004, 02:07 AM	#34 (permalink)
CHEROSAGE Pow Wow Committee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: , mo Posts: 1,341	Glad we can talk about these things instead of bickering about who has the right to dance and who doesn't. I think we should educate instead of belittling. Those that probably shouldn't, do. We should just educate them and hope they learn something. Maybe someday they will learn that they aren't doing things right and start. By the way congrats, WhoMe. __________________ BOB

11-10-2004, 11:46 AM	#27 (permalink)
sltate Senior Dancer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: apache,ok Posts: 559	Well, I would like to throw a question in here. Now, this is just a "what do think" question, so don't get upset with me. I was told, by elders of the Comanche tribe, that the gourd dance and its songs originally belonged to the comanches. I was told that they have societies that dance this dance. My late father in law, Doc Tate Nevaquaya, was instrumental in reviving the Comanche Little Ponies way back when. Now, I understand that every tribe has its history in reference to this dance and I respect that. I just want to throw out there what I was told. My late father, Ronnie Harris, Sr, was initiated into the Kiowa TiaPiah Society in the early 70's and my adopted dad, Walter Kaulaity is a prominent member of the Kiowa Gourd Clan...so I am familiar with the dance. Is it true that Comanche had horses before the Kiowas? Give me some feedback please.