park

If you've only seen the dance once or twice you know not of what you speak. Don't talk about what you don't know.

With your comments, you insult the society (by the way, it's not a "thing") and you expose your own ignorance.

Beth

I as a women was taken into the gourd arena the proper way and I dance in my proper place. I have heard it said of the gourd dance and the hethushka that without the support of the women most of those men would not be there. It just isn't made blatanly obvious to the public. You need to delve deeper before you go any further.

CHEROSAGE

I need to jump in here and put a pennies worth in.

Bahnisiain:
This "thing" is a dance that means a great deal to many of us. Especially us Veterans. This dance is not from the East but was given out to you all to honor our Vet's.

Our ladies are quite honored in this dance, though outsiders looking in may not obviously see this. Without my Mom and Wife dancing behind me(my father is a deceased Vet.) I would not have made it through my military career. I feel highly honored when they dance behind me. They wear their gourd shawls as I wear my Battle blanket. In our Indian societies our women are very important. They are no less important or belittling themselves because they dance dance behind us. Indian women raised Indian and know Indian ways understand their very honored position in our societies!!!!!!!!!! I think people need to understand in great depth about these "things" before accepting at face value what is superficially observed.

Sorry for my SOAP BOX thought but some of these ways are necessary. I have a pet pieve about doing what is supposed to be done. Many of these ways should never be altered. What would happen if a man wore shells to a stomp dance or wore a shawl to a dance? This would be well noticed wouldn't it?

Just my thoughts, Wa-Do!!!!!!!!!!!
Let's just stomp 'til sun up!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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BOB

swing_n_sway_babe

:36: The women should not dance with the men..they are to dance behind the men in the gourd dance. The women should not even think about dance with a gourd during a gourd dance song, like with the Gourd Clans. But I know there are some tribes that have women dance with gourds, like the Omaha's. That is a totally different dance. And the women take part in dance with the gourds. That is the only way that I know that a woman can dance with a gourd.

CHEROSAGE

Well said Swing-n-Sway-Babe.

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BOB

Lipan Lady

I was at a powwow at Fredricksburg TX this Saturday and two women were dancing on line with the men. Both women are vets. Many of us were waiting for the AD, Head Gourd, or the MC to talk to these women and escort them out of the arena, but nothing happened. One of the women went to the mike and spoke about her right to Gourd Dance with the men. Everyone clapped. I will not mention names, but this powwow is run by well known Indian people. My brother walked out when he saw this happening.

This is not the first time I have seen this. It happened in San Antonio twice in April. I was at one of the powwows and the other time my brother was there. No one said anything to these women. I respect what our lady vets are doing for our us and our country, but the Gourd Dance is a man's dance. I think everyone is partly at fault for these incidents happening: the Powwow Committee, Drum, AD, Head Gourd, MC, sponsoring Gourd Society, and the women. Is this just happening here or else where? I am so tired of people changing traditions because of modern times without any thought of the consequences. I hope other people who were at these powwows speak up.

Lipan Lady (Betty)

CHEROSAGE

Thanks Lipan Lady for your insight and willingness to take the stand. I have noticed that as time goes on and our elders pass on we don't take these stands enough. I remember when if we were not behaving the elder ladies would come out and escort us to the side for our regular whooooopings. Where are these elder replacements. I see Elders out and around the arena but these ladies just stay put. I have seen some elder ladies do these right things but not enough. I remember one time when Grams and my wife gave another woman a lecture, poor woman, and she left soon after. We do need to retake charge of our culture, and everyone must help. We must adjust not just the younguns but these new agers, etc, as well.

Thank you for allowing me to ramble again.

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BOB

BullcreekLdy

I am not going to lie I am young and young in the circle. But I have watched women aunts and friends dance beside the men during a gourd dance. yes there are dances honoring women but, women die just as easily as men during a war. If we fight beside men why aren't we allowed to dance besdie them and be honored for risking our lives just as they did in battle? Also, in some gourd societies most men have NEVER served. Why should they be allowed to be honored in that way but not a woman who has been on the line? Then again I also understand the respect of our culture and our past traditions. I am still being taught so I am offering my opinon to any who will listen but I am a young girl and some would say foolish in my notions.[color=darkred]

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When your in the arena nothing matters but the step of your feet, the sway of your fringe and the beat of the drum. ~Peace love and fry bread.~

Billy Two Hawks

Yes women fight and die, but it's still a man's dance and will always be such. Maybe someday someone will start a woman's dance to honor those who join the services.

BullcreekLdy

I agree we should find a way of honoring women And truthfully everyone is quick to say "NO NO NO" but no one is willing to offer a solution. It is really easy to say no but it is much harder to try and understand and to offer and alternative. What else can we do If they are not allowed to dance beside the men for now are they to be ignored? Especially in the south people treat pow wow regardless of the dance as just pow wow some forget that people are being honored during certain dances, fort hat matter most dont know about any other form of honoring other than money. so what else are we to do for them?

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When your in the arena nothing matters but the step of your feet, the sway of your fringe and the beat of the drum. ~Peace love and fry bread.~

CHEROSAGE

Bullcreek lady:

Our ladies ARE honored by us when we dance as well as our Verteran friends and family. I am a Vet along with many of my friends. I am very honored when my family dances right behind me during these dances. I know many ladies that are Vet.'s also and they are not any less a Vet. than I am. I know that many of these ladies will wear their awards on their shawls as well they should. I have heard not much arguement in the south(OK area) about the ladies not being able to dance on line with the men. I have heard this arguement amongst the women that aren't from the Gourd dance area. Our ladies know the history and the right way things are done and these women that fight the system don't seem to know. They need to ask some of our lady elders for some assistance to get some know. Some of the ladies of know would be the CIVA War Mothers etc.

I know that I'm rambling again and thank you for your time.

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BOB

BullcreekLdy

ok. I can understand that to an extent, but first off I dont know about Ok I have never been to a pow wow in OK. I am from texas and I wont lie that is the only experiance i have. Secondl, I know that they can wear their medals and ribbons on their shawls and the women in my life do. What I am refering to is simply that down here, (thats what I mean by south I am in San antonio) people dont know any other way to honor people except by dropping money or...by "giving them special recognition" if you will. The pow wow in fredricksburg the commitee were not planning on allowing women TO SET FOOT even behind the men in the arena xcept those from their people. That happens when people dont konw or dont care.Unless people are willing to help, nothing will change in that area therefore we are stuck. I can think of numerous circumstances where a young woman will ask for advice and will be turned away. It has happened to me. The only people who dont turn us away are to far north and dont gourd dance(south dakota area). that is where we lay. So maybe your right we dont know but whos going to help? Like I said earlier everyone says no no no but they wont help either so..... Ok im rambling to lol

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When your in the arena nothing matters but the step of your feet, the sway of your fringe and the beat of the drum. ~Peace love and fry bread.~

BullcreekLdy

Ack, ok my bad I didnt say this earlier but there are no War mothers Clans(once again that I've heard of) in texas, so who are we to ask? people who turn away? nothing against anyone who would help us and I will take all the help I can get. But everyone holds everything in a tight grasp those of us who werent fortunate enough to be raised with these ways are left hanging if you know what I mean OK IM DONE lol

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When your in the arena nothing matters but the step of your feet, the sway of your fringe and the beat of the drum. ~Peace love and fry bread.~

CHEROSAGE

I don't mean to sound arrogant nor have the only info. I recommend that you seek some of the Kiowas or Commanches that go down to the Texas dances. I know that many do attend some of these dances in the San Antonio, Dallas/Ft. Worth, Austin Etc.Etc....areas. I too have attended a dance in the McAllen area in Oct. for a number of years now. A few of these authorities(people that truely has the answers to these questions) have also been there with us.

Be careful of wolves in sheeps clothing, pardon this old cliche. Some self proclaimed experts are simply self taught and generally just not the right ones to educate us. This is true with other topics and points of view that has been discussed in earlier threads. I too know that many ladies in Texas have this info such as Lipan lady. You may want to PM her to ask her for her insight.

Thanks for your intent to learn the correct ways and not just go out and make up a new tradition.

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BOB

BullcreekLdy

Ok, I apreciate your advice especially about talking to people (Kiowa),but many people whom I have spoken to are self educated. But I still come back to, some people are completely um.. I am pulling a blank on a term to use, but they arent willing to offer any help. So we are still stuck. Truthfully I am also sick of playing the game. I am 17 and Im still learning and my experiance has been that the women down here are either so caught up bickering amoung themselves, or they dont care. The elders who are suppose to help us learn arent.SO what are we to do? And the ones who will help, (in Ok or futher north) arent in a position to help. As in distance, money situation.
I am probably going to take your advice on talking to Lipan lady as well but more so because she does see something I may not. But that does not mean that I still dont think that we should find a seperate way of honoring our female veterans. If I may quote a veteran friend"How many bullets have to fly past our ears?" She Is my key inspiration in this.

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When your in the arena nothing matters but the step of your feet, the sway of your fringe and the beat of the drum. ~Peace love and fry bread.~

luvstraightdancrs