women gourd dancers - Page 4

CHEROSAGE · 05-28-2002, 02:54 AM

Acta:
First I would ask, are you Kiowa? If not you might ask the same Question of your tribe. If you are Kiowa then you may want to ask this of a Kiowa War Mother. I know that the Comanches have thier CIVA where the War Mothers are a very important part of their society. I know that our society I belong to has a Womens Auxillary. The War Mothers wear a Blanket type shaw and our ladies wear a red/blue shaw.

To answer your question (maybe finally) most societies have a womens auxillary.

Good luck!!!!! Wa-Do!!!!

FBKiowa · 05-28-2002, 04:08 PM

Good Day to everyone. Well I have been reading these different thoughts of if women should be allowed to come into the arena and dance, like the men do. Well let me ask, When Old man Eagleheart, Big Bow,Ahaitty,Kaulaity, who were trying to remeber the way the dance went did they once consider of changing the way it should be danced? The Kiowa's Used the songs from the Sun Dance. If you don't belive me ask the older Kiowa men who do the history of the tribe. This question of the women dancing w/the men I don't think my Great-Grandfathers or the women of there time even thought like we do today. When I go home to dances today and see the women those who have served they still respect there role in the way of the Kiowa traditions. I can only think this was asked for other tribes who do not really understand the dance the way the Kiowa people do.

Billy Two Hawks · 05-30-2002, 09:53 PM

With due respect to MuseBI and anyone else out there, Before you take it upon yourself to change modify or otherwise create your regalia it would be very wise to consult an elder that knows.
To keep yourself from embarassment or dishonoring a family.

Headsmen · 06-12-2002, 12:17 AM

The Tia Piah is a men's organization and has been for 800 years.
It is not our position to change our dance in any way now or ever.
The women who are honored among our people such as the War Mother's or Victory Club receive our highiest respect and honor, and any women who thinks she is better than these lady's does not know our ways.

Billy Two Hawks · 06-16-2002, 11:29 PM

Headsman,
You're reply to all this should be enough said. Well put ! And I could'nt agree more.

Billy Two Hawks · 06-17-2002, 11:31 PM

To Park,
I have witnessed a woman in the circle as stated in one of my previous posts. In Biloxi, MS a few years back.

Shawl Lady · 06-29-2002, 07:27 PM

I've read through all these messages for and against women gourd dancers. It's tricky subject There have been women warriors throughout time. Many women are very brave and courageous serving in the military and in wars in ways different from men, then as now.

I personally do not have a problem with permitting women veterans do wear the clothes and shake the rattles in gourd dances. But I know how many of the men feel that are long-time members of war dance societies. They want to preserve the old ways. I can understand that and that's certainly a good thing.

I think any woman veteran can find ways to dance with pride and honor without trying to change up the Gourd Dance Societies. She can choose to wear the red and blue shawl (or the solid red shawl) and dance behind the men, she can speak to male members of the Gourd Dance Society before a pow wow and let them choose a way to honor her.

It is not for a woman veteran -- not in our generation! -- to make demands on the Gourd Dance Societies. It will happen slowly and over time, as more and more women vets begin to enter the dance circle as honored veterans.

I honor my father and my husband who are war veterans. I am certain that friends and family of the women vets will find a way to do the same for them. Just be patient.

:)

MuzeBl · 06-29-2002, 08:42 PM

except in cases of special request....the men can put a woman up front to dance...but they have never had a woman just up and dance with the men at gourd like this thread is describing. The old man I was talking to about this said it's just never happened.

I doubt if anyone can claim the National Defense ribbon stripes, but I checked around with the Kiowas...not a problem for any colors I wanna use. Turns out it not so much the colors (except for the black leggins) as the beadwork designs. I got permission to use the design on a beaded purse that I bought...she was happy that I liked it so much...just seemed like the whole time I was in Anadarko, this bird kept popping up.
I was invited to participate in a club for Chief Set'tainte, so I will use the colors in his honor...red and yellow, which as luck would have it..are the main colors of the National Defense medal's ribbon. NO coincidences.

I attended a gourd dance over in Carnegie, and I felt it an honor to dance along the side with the other women.

Nice post, Headsman...we talked about the War Mother's and I would feel quite satisfied to associate with those women!

Old_G · 07-09-2002, 01:31 PM

:Yell

Women are supposed to dance behind the men unless they are being honored. Its been handed down to us generations like that who are we to change it. Women are to support the men. Out of respect they dance behind them.

Old_G

BRGOURD · 07-09-2002, 02:29 PM

Well put !!!!!! Let us all remember that this is a KIOWA Dance and should be done the KIOWA way !!!!!

Have a nice day !!!!

napesne · 02-13-2003, 10:34 PM

i have seen this issue addressed recently in dances out this way, and for those of us who have been brought up in these dancing ways, we are taught to have a certain respect for our NATIVE ways. I am a man, and i do what men do. I sit at the drum, i dance the way men dance. because i have that respect. I am not saying that i would dance womans dance.
Now this issue of women ACTUALLY dancing gourd dance has been confronted out here. There have been women who have come out into the arena DEMANDING to be honored. PUSHING into the arena.
This way that they are acting is so WHITE. So totally alien to native thought patterns.
Now these women who want to gourd dance need to (FIRST) calm down before they go charging into a gourd dance armed with a gourd and the dance regalia. because that will just get them and the male dancers angry.
I myself have gotten up and left a gourd dance because a woman did this.
For the most part out here women veterans ARE honored for thier contributions to the defense of the country, but they still dance the way women dance. This is the way gourd dance is done.
If the women veterans want to dance gourd, then let them, but first they must form their own society and make their own rules.
aho

Billy Two Hawks · 02-16-2003, 02:03 PM

This BULL about women dancing along side the men is just that!
Gourd Dancing has been, is, and should ever be a mans' dance.
That's how I feel about it. Aho!

SBZ4life · 02-18-2003, 05:03 PM

OMG!! I myself have never seen a woman dance with a gourd and what not while gourd dance songs are being sung. Everyone knows what to do...We all know Kiowas started gourd dance..but if I see a woman dancing gourd dance with gourd and the works I might have to bonk her on the head with her gourd.

WOMAN HAVE THIER PLACE

MEN HAVE THIERS

Who cares if this is the new times and blah blah blah, these ways are old..is it just me or is it these "other" tribes who are just now getting the gourd dance messing around with it. I wouldnt be surprised if they came out with a Barbie with a gourd dance outfit...hee hee...Everyone out there who think women should dance gourd in hand...Poor thangs.

Tsi-tse Wa-tsi · 02-18-2003, 06:55 PM

Like it was stated before this dance has been here for 800 years, it is not our place to change it. With that being said.. it is when folks try to radically change things or bring things back that were put away, that bad things happen to them and the organization. There is always a price to be paid.

SBZ4life · 02-18-2003, 07:48 PM

To those who care for women to dance gourd dance...Respect the ways

**TurtleWoman** · 02-18-2003, 08:07 PM

People are always trying to mess with things. That's why the children are confused on how things were or should be, leave well enough alone. It survived 800 years the way it was, let it go another 800.

spicysouthern · 04-07-2003, 05:59 PM

GAAHHHHHHH!! Im not even going to step into this topic. It shouldn't even be a topic.

View Poll Results: Should women vets be allowed to gourd dance along side the men?
Definitely, they paid thier dues!	32	13.79%
Not in my lifetime.	166	71.55%
Yes, but they should have different type of blanket(added fringe or ribbonwork)fan and shaker/rattle.	27	11.64%
Did someone say women dancers? Woo Hoo!	7	3.02%
Voters: 232. You may not vote on this poll

05-28-2002, 02:54 AM	#61 (permalink)
CHEROSAGE Pow Wow Committee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: , mo Posts: 1,342	Acta: First I would ask, are you Kiowa? If not you might ask the same Question of your tribe. If you are Kiowa then you may want to ask this of a Kiowa War Mother. I know that the Comanches have thier CIVA where the War Mothers are a very important part of their society. I know that our society I belong to has a Womens Auxillary. The War Mothers wear a Blanket type shaw and our ladies wear a red/blue shaw. To answer your question (maybe finally) most societies have a womens auxillary. Good luck!!!!! Wa-Do!!!! __________________ BOB

06-12-2002, 12:17 AM	#64 (permalink)
Headsmen Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Jonesboro Posts: 7	Women Gourd Dancing The Tia Piah is a men's organization and has been for 800 years. It is not our position to change our dance in any way now or ever. The women who are honored among our people such as the War Mother's or Victory Club receive our highiest respect and honor, and any women who thinks she is better than these lady's does not know our ways.

06-29-2002, 07:27 PM	#67 (permalink)
Shawl Lady Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Oregon river valley among forests and mountains Posts: 68	I've read through all these messages for and against women gourd dancers. It's tricky subject There have been women warriors throughout time. Many women are very brave and courageous serving in the military and in wars in ways different from men, then as now. I personally do not have a problem with permitting women veterans do wear the clothes and shake the rattles in gourd dances. But I know how many of the men feel that are long-time members of war dance societies. They want to preserve the old ways. I can understand that and that's certainly a good thing. I think any woman veteran can find ways to dance with pride and honor without trying to change up the Gourd Dance Societies. She can choose to wear the red and blue shawl (or the solid red shawl) and dance behind the men, she can speak to male members of the Gourd Dance Society before a pow wow and let them choose a way to honor her. It is not for a woman veteran -- not in our generation! -- to make demands on the Gourd Dance Societies. It will happen slowly and over time, as more and more women vets begin to enter the dance circle as honored veterans. I honor my father and my husband who are war veterans. I am certain that friends and family of the women vets will find a way to do the same for them. Just be patient. :) __________________ Shawl Lady

06-29-2002, 08:42 PM	#68 (permalink)
MuzeBl Gourd Dancer Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Kiowa Country Oklahoma Posts: 93	except in cases of special request....the men can put a woman up front to dance...but they have never had a woman just up and dance with the men at gourd like this thread is describing. The old man I was talking to about this said it's just never happened. I doubt if anyone can claim the National Defense ribbon stripes, but I checked around with the Kiowas...not a problem for any colors I wanna use. Turns out it not so much the colors (except for the black leggins) as the beadwork designs. I got permission to use the design on a beaded purse that I bought...she was happy that I liked it so much...just seemed like the whole time I was in Anadarko, this bird kept popping up. I was invited to participate in a club for Chief Set'tainte, so I will use the colors in his honor...red and yellow, which as luck would have it..are the main colors of the National Defense medal's ribbon. NO coincidences. I attended a gourd dance over in Carnegie, and I felt it an honor to dance along the side with the other women. Nice post, Headsman...we talked about the War Mother's and I would feel quite satisfied to associate with those women! __________________ Instead of telling God how big your storm is, tell your storm how big your God is!

05-28-2002, 04:08 PM	#62 (permalink)
FBKiowa Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Feb 2002 Location: Kansas Posts: 4	Good Day to everyone. Well I have been reading these different thoughts of if women should be allowed to come into the arena and dance, like the men do. Well let me ask, When Old man Eagleheart, Big Bow,Ahaitty,Kaulaity, who were trying to remeber the way the dance went did they once consider of changing the way it should be danced? The Kiowa's Used the songs from the Sun Dance. If you don't belive me ask the older Kiowa men who do the history of the tribe. This question of the women dancing w/the men I don't think my Great-Grandfathers or the women of there time even thought like we do today. When I go home to dances today and see the women those who have served they still respect there role in the way of the Kiowa traditions. I can only think this was asked for other tribes who do not really understand the dance the way the Kiowa people do.

05-30-2002, 09:53 PM	#63 (permalink)
Billy Two Hawks Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: tn Posts: 16	With due respect to MuseBI and anyone else out there, Before you take it upon yourself to change modify or otherwise create your regalia it would be very wise to consult an elder that knows. To keep yourself from embarassment or dishonoring a family.

06-16-2002, 11:29 PM	#65 (permalink)
Billy Two Hawks Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: tn Posts: 16	Headsman, You're reply to all this should be enough said. Well put ! And I could'nt agree more.

06-17-2002, 11:31 PM	#66 (permalink)
Billy Two Hawks Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: tn Posts: 16	To Park, I have witnessed a woman in the circle as stated in one of my previous posts. In Biloxi, MS a few years back.

07-09-2002, 01:31 PM	#69 (permalink)
Old_G Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: oklahoma Posts: 14	NO!!!! :Yell Women are supposed to dance behind the men unless they are being honored. Its been handed down to us generations like that who are we to change it. Women are to support the men. Out of respect they dance behind them. Old_G

07-09-2002, 02:29 PM	#70 (permalink)
BRGOURD TOASTRIDER Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: covington, tn Posts: 9	Well put !!!!!! Let us all remember that this is a KIOWA Dance and should be done the KIOWA way !!!!! Have a nice day !!!!

02-13-2003, 10:34 PM	#71 (permalink)
napesne Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: Land of Enchantment Posts: 20	Women Gourd Dancing i have seen this issue addressed recently in dances out this way, and for those of us who have been brought up in these dancing ways, we are taught to have a certain respect for our NATIVE ways. I am a man, and i do what men do. I sit at the drum, i dance the way men dance. because i have that respect. I am not saying that i would dance womans dance. Now this issue of women ACTUALLY dancing gourd dance has been confronted out here. There have been women who have come out into the arena DEMANDING to be honored. PUSHING into the arena. This way that they are acting is so WHITE. So totally alien to native thought patterns. Now these women who want to gourd dance need to (FIRST) calm down before they go charging into a gourd dance armed with a gourd and the dance regalia. because that will just get them and the male dancers angry. I myself have gotten up and left a gourd dance because a woman did this. For the most part out here women veterans ARE honored for thier contributions to the defense of the country, but they still dance the way women dance. This is the way gourd dance is done. If the women veterans want to dance gourd, then let them, but first they must form their own society and make their own rules. aho

02-16-2003, 02:03 PM	#72 (permalink)
Billy Two Hawks Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: tn Posts: 16	This BULL about women dancing along side the men is just that! Gourd Dancing has been, is, and should ever be a mans' dance. That's how I feel about it. Aho!

02-18-2003, 05:03 PM	#73 (permalink)
SBZ4life ~Southernz Elite~ Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Room 112 Posts: 799	Tia Piah GAW DANG OMG!! I myself have never seen a woman dance with a gourd and what not while gourd dance songs are being sung. Everyone knows what to do...We all know Kiowas started gourd dance..but if I see a woman dancing gourd dance with gourd and the works I might have to bonk her on the head with her gourd. WOMAN HAVE THIER PLACE MEN HAVE THIERS Who cares if this is the new times and blah blah blah, these ways are old..is it just me or is it these "other" tribes who are just now getting the gourd dance messing around with it. I wouldnt be surprised if they came out with a Barbie with a gourd dance outfit...hee hee...Everyone out there who think women should dance gourd in hand...Poor thangs. __________________ :indian2: MIRROR MIRROR ON THE WALL, JEAN CLAUDE VAN DAMME IM FINE:muscles: " say what I feel, I say what I think, I say what you do not like, Yet for some reason what I say is somewhat correct" Chief Big Beef 1999

02-18-2003, 06:55 PM	#74 (permalink)
Tsi-tse Wa-tsi Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Jan 2000 Location: across the Red River Posts: 99	Like it was stated before this dance has been here for 800 years, it is not our place to change it. With that being said.. it is when folks try to radically change things or bring things back that were put away, that bad things happen to them and the organization. There is always a price to be paid. __________________ Tha-ke'-tha-pi Wa-kon-ta

04-17-2003, 11:39 AM	#78 (permalink)
jingle genie SpOnGeNoNeR RoUndPaNt'Z Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: CALI Posts: 3,942

02-18-2003, 07:48 PM	#75 (permalink)
SBZ4life ~Southernz Elite~ Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Room 112 Posts: 799	To those who care for women to dance gourd dance...Respect the ways __________________ :indian2: MIRROR MIRROR ON THE WALL, JEAN CLAUDE VAN DAMME IM FINE:muscles: " say what I feel, I say what I think, I say what you do not like, Yet for some reason what I say is somewhat correct" Chief Big Beef 1999

02-18-2003, 08:07 PM	#76 (permalink)
TurtleWoman PowWows.com Addicts Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Southeast US Posts: 3,511	People are always trying to mess with things. That's why the children are confused on how things were or should be, leave well enough alone. It survived 800 years the way it was, let it go another 800. __________________ Sometimes the Heart sees what is invisible to the eye. ~H.J.Brown Jr. No one "makes us" feel anything, we choose to feel, act, and react the way we do. ~~Nino's Philosophy I am not the Creator and therefore cannot "save" anyone. The path one walks is between the individual and the creator; not to be judged by me. ~TurtleWoman

04-07-2003, 05:59 PM	#77 (permalink)
spicysouthern Teen Dancer Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: pow wow trail but when im real bad its county jail Posts: 335	GAAHHHHHHH!! Im not even going to step into this topic. It shouldn't even be a topic.