women gourd dancers - Page 15

Stacks_Alot · 05-12-2006, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by R I Whiteside

One of the main things that wacipi / powwows do is help us as a people to hold our traditions together in a changing world. The gourd dance is a men's warrior society dance and as a vet with 22 years in the army I dance for myself and for all of my brothers who did not make it back from the Nam. I don't think that I am an elder just because I'm getting old or a hero just because I have a Silver Star and some other trinkets from the war. When I dance I am one who carries on a tradition that goes all the way back. Women Have their traditions too - sclp dances and wolf songs at Hethuska as well as the "supporting outer circle" during gourd songs. I believe that it is wrong of a woman to break the age-old traditions of our people by doing trying to dance like a man. I would not be impolite or "make a scene:, but I would not gourd dance in the circle with a woman who is trying to act like a man. We had a lady try to dance with Mens Traditional a couple of years ago at a good powwow in Gulfport, MS and the drum went flat.

In respect I do agree with what you say. I live here in the East and have only seen the Gourd Dance once. But many back here(not specifying tribes or offending) dont understand the Warrior societies. But I will reply on this more at a later time. Aho

Aliskisku · 05-19-2006, 02:39 PM

Hello.. didn't know how to set up a new Post... Honor & Blessings to "StacksAlot"... Please excuse my Newness to this computer thing...
I am a mix breed that doesn't look right at PowWows...I go...I dance for my Grandmothers at the open dance (they, who did not get to dance because of hate...yes I'm that old) and then I sit down or go shopping at the stands...I get the looks but I always have my whole life after introducing my cousins and my own brother & sister, with their beautiful dark skin...that's right I'm the Redhead...had to have one!!! and I'm It!! the Only One!!! In The Whole Family!!!! until my 3 sons...so in my "Tears" Gown with shawl and fan, I know I Look Like a "wannabe"...But my Heart...I cannot steal my heart...my God-daugther is Apache&white, (don't look white!) and when I take her places the Natives look & laugh at me... Her family calls me "warrior woman", she calls me Mom... I am a widow... PowWow is Praise & Worship for me...a woman with more White hair than Red, with more white skin than red... My father & his brothers had to go to the boarding schools...They all 3 went to TWO wars and came back!...they were not welcomed by natives because their father was white so they never went back... this hurts so much Now that they are gone from this place and Now, After so much truth about Life and Tribe has come out, that Prayer & Praise (PowWow) is for all people... Everytime the Gourd Dancers prepare & gather & start their songs... I remember my family that did not get to hear the songs at PowWow, my Father & Uncles that could not be white or native.... and they are with me in the songs of the elders... my spirit is comforted and my soul & bones are healed...I will stand at my seat in the bleachers, with my hands out & palms up, eyes closed and pray in my own language, because I have No Idea what is being said in the songs...Yet...my soul sings and I am lifted ...So the "songs" may belong to "these" peoples and "societies" are open to "these" peoples...The Spirit of the Creator Gives Life to all peoples that hear and Blesses all peoples that honor the Spirit of Truth of the song and honors the Ministers of the song...I am healed & comforted...whether I get to "play" with y'all or not... Not that my Apache Family or my close friends of many different Nations don't Play with me... They Do... just some folk are still stuck ... Come Let's Dance... "Ole Dancing Squirrel" - SaloliAliskisku

hawkwind · 05-22-2006, 07:11 AM

I see the explaination of the gourd dance and have only seen part of it once.I respect all warrior societies, but have heard of women that dance at these gatherings. I read that many were Veterans, But how does one become a gourd dancer? The women supporting the worriors is always true to the heart of the human beings. As long as women stand behind their Warriors, there will always be strength and Tradtion going forward. I wish i could see this dance of honor to its fullest and my prayers go out to all who dance. Even the women. But as young as I am I see the dance and wonder what the requirements are... still learning many things in life as it is but when i heard the rattles, from the one dancer i saw here(ohio), i wanted to shake a rattle too. Not for show, but in prayer and honor. Leting Creator know that Old Ones are still here to teach and tell stories about war times and others. But that is all i can say right now. Forgive me for the letter being so scattered.

Creator be with All, Aho
Satcks_Alot

CHEROSAGE · 07-25-2007, 01:47 AM

As I was taught per "Kiowa" Satepautleedle and other Elders, women are to never be inducted(brought in) as a Gourd dancer since this IS a Mans Dance. This was reiterated in a letter, which I have, to Granddad.

kiowakat · 08-03-2007, 04:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CHEROSAGE

As I was taught per "Kiowa" Satepautleedle and other Elders, women are to never be inducted(brought in) as a Gourd dancer since this IS a Mans Dance. This was reiterated in a letter, which I have, to Granddad.

good job cherosage!! this is what I was taught also!!

2kiowa4u · 08-03-2007, 04:50 PM

allow mee to say this: THE KIOWA GOURD DANCE IS A MEN'S ONLY DANCE, THE KIOWA GOURD DANCE IS A MEN'S ONLY DANCE, AND THE KIOWA GOURD DANCE IS A MEN'S ONLY DANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!

WOMEN DANCE ON THE OUTER PERIMETER OF THE ARENA, ONLY TIME THEY'RE ALLOWED IS TO HONOR THEIR MEN-FOLK RELATIVES ONLY!!!!

UNLESS, WOMAN IS DESIGNATED HEAD LADY DANCER, BUT STILL HAS TO DANCE OUTER-PERIMETER OF ARENA.

OR IF SHE'S THE AW-DAY-MAH-TAUN, AND STILL SHE HAS TO DANCE ON THE PERIMETER OF THE ARENA, UNLESS SHE'S BEING HONORED BY HER RELATIVES ONLY.

ALL RESPECTS AND HONOR TO THE WOMEN WHO ARE IN THE MILITARY ACTIVE OR NON-ACTIVE.

YOU STILL HAVE TO DANCE ON THE PERIMETER OF THE ARENA UNLESS YOU ARE BEING HONORED BY THE GOURD CLAN OR HOST COMMITTEE.

kiowakat · 08-03-2007, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 2kiowa4u

allow mee to say this: THE KIOWA GOURD DANCE IS A MEN'S ONLY DANCE, THE KIOWA GOURD DANCE IS A MEN'S ONLY DANCE, AND THE KIOWA GOURD DANCE IS A MEN'S ONLY DANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!

WOMEN DANCE ON THE OUTER PERIMETER OF THE ARENA, ONLY TIME THEY'RE ALLOWED IS TO HONOR THEIR MEN-FOLK RELATIVES ONLY!!!!

UNLESS, WOMAN IS DESIGNATED HEAD LADY DANCER, BUT STILL HAS TO DANCE OUTER-PERIMETER OF ARENA.

OR IF SHE'S THE AW-DAY-MAH-TAUN, AND STILL SHE HAS TO DANCE ON THE PERIMETER OF THE ARENA, UNLESS SHE'S BEING HONORED BY HER RELATIVES ONLY.

ALL RESPECTS AND HONOR TO THE WOMEN WHO ARE IN THE MILITARY ACTIVE OR NON-ACTIVE.

YOU STILL HAVE TO DANCE ON THE PERIMETER OF THE ARENA UNLESS YOU ARE BEING HONORED BY THE GOURD CLAN OR HOST COMMITTEE.

Aho!

laokie · 10-09-2007, 03:46 PM

Originally Posted by 2kiowa4u
"allow mee to say this: THE KIOWA GOURD DANCE IS A MEN'S ONLY DANCE, THE KIOWA GOURD DANCE IS A MEN'S ONLY DANCE, AND THE KIOWA GOURD DANCE IS A MEN'S ONLY DANCE!!!!!!!!!!!!

WOMEN DANCE ON THE OUTER PERIMETER OF THE ARENA, ONLY TIME THEY'RE ALLOWED IS TO HONOR THEIR MEN-FOLK RELATIVES ONLY!!!!

UNLESS, WOMAN IS DESIGNATED HEAD LADY DANCER, BUT STILL HAS TO DANCE OUTER-PERIMETER OF ARENA.

OR IF SHE'S THE AW-DAY-MAH-TAUN, AND STILL SHE HAS TO DANCE ON THE PERIMETER OF THE ARENA, UNLESS SHE'S BEING HONORED BY HER RELATIVES ONLY.

ALL RESPECTS AND HONOR TO THE WOMEN WHO ARE IN THE MILITARY ACTIVE OR NON-ACTIVE.

YOU STILL HAVE TO DANCE ON THE PERIMETER OF THE ARENA UNLESS YOU ARE BEING HONORED BY THE GOURD CLAN OR HOST COMMITTEE."

Well said 2Kiowa4u. That's the way it has always been....and the way it should always be!!
End of story.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"A PROUD KIOWA"

soonerbyheart · 10-16-2007, 10:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bahnisiain

i have only seen the Gourd Dance once or twice in my life. I am aware that Gourd Dancing started off as a male society thing. I have seen alot of Women veterans that are flag bearers during Grand Entry. I see nothing wrong with women doing the Gourd dance.

then you should have no matter in this. In other words shut-up

lsmiles · 07-25-2008, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mato Winyan

Yesterday a friend and I had a discussion about women gourd dancers. We were talking about women veterans dancing along side the men with blankets, fans and shakers/rattles.
I would like to know what you all feel about this.

No, women should not be allowed to do this, vets or non-vets. Kiowa women dance behind the benches, whether dressed or in a shawl. The only woman allowed to sit on the bench with the men is the Ah-day-my-ton, and when she dances, she stays behind the men.

Zotigh · 11-18-2008, 03:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeke

Any bets?

"Within my lifetime, easy." When I see it -- and I will -- I'll send you a photo. I think the point you're missing is this:

It doesn't matter how you feel about it.

I mean, the Kiowa might say that such a dance is merely a reinvented version of their own co-opted cultural ideal: but they do that anyway. (Laughably. To EVERYTHING.)

It's not personal, man. It's just the way it is.

Whoa! That is disrespectful on any level, bud. I don't know what tribe you belong to, but the Kiowa don't 'co-opt your cultural ideal' in any way. Or, that of any other tribe.

You sound bitter and angry. I hope you have folks in your area that you can talk to about your issues.

Zeke · 11-18-2008, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zotigh

Whoa! That is disrespectful on any level, bud. I don't know what tribe you belong to, but the Kiowa don't 'co-opt your cultural ideal' in any way. Or, that of any other tribe.

You sound bitter and angry. I hope you have folks in your area that you can talk to about your issues.

Wow. This thread's been dead a while!

1. I have no issues. (Well, none related to this topic.)
2. Every tribe co-opted from something, and the Gourd Dance is -- certainly -- one of the most disputed in terms of origin.
3. Things change, relatively rapidly, across ALL lines.
4. It doesn't matter how anyone feels about it: it happens.

That's not disrespectful, merely the facts of life. A failure to acknowledge such Universal Truth holds everyone back.

To wit: 25% of those polled already indicate this question is a non-issue for them. I presume that is UP from twenty years ago: which is the point of my stance.

Do I, personally, really care? "No." But that doesn't matter, either. This is just the way it is.

Fat Albert · 11-18-2008, 07:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeke

Wow. This thread's been dead a while!

1. I have no issues. (Well, none relat

View Poll Results: Should women vets be allowed to gourd dance along side the men?
Definitely, they paid thier dues!	32	13.79%
Not in my lifetime.	166	71.55%
Yes, but they should have different type of blanket(added fringe or ribbonwork)fan and shaker/rattle.	27	11.64%
Did someone say women dancers? Woo Hoo!	7	3.02%
Voters: 232. You may not vote on this poll

05-22-2006, 07:11 AM	#283 (permalink)
hawkwind Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Petaluma,CA/Otsego,OH Posts: 7	Gourd Dance... I see the explaination of the gourd dance and have only seen part of it once.I respect all warrior societies, but have heard of women that dance at these gatherings. I read that many were Veterans, But how does one become a gourd dancer? The women supporting the worriors is always true to the heart of the human beings. As long as women stand behind their Warriors, there will always be strength and Tradtion going forward. I wish i could see this dance of honor to its fullest and my prayers go out to all who dance. Even the women. But as young as I am I see the dance and wonder what the requirements are... still learning many things in life as it is but when i heard the rattles, from the one dancer i saw here(ohio), i wanted to shake a rattle too. Not for show, but in prayer and honor. Leting Creator know that Old Ones are still here to teach and tell stories about war times and others. But that is all i can say right now. Forgive me for the letter being so scattered. Creator be with All, Aho Satcks_Alot

07-25-2007, 01:47 AM	#284 (permalink)
CHEROSAGE Pow Wow Committee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: , mo Posts: 1,342	As I was taught per "Kiowa" Satepautleedle and other Elders, women are to never be inducted(brought in) as a Gourd dancer since this IS a Mans Dance. This was reiterated in a letter, which I have, to Granddad. __________________ BOB

05-19-2006, 02:39 PM	#282 (permalink)
Aliskisku Saloli Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Arizona Posts: 15	Hello.. didn't know how to set up a new Post... Honor & Blessings to "StacksAlot"... Please excuse my Newness to this computer thing... I am a mix breed that doesn't look right at PowWows...I go...I dance for my Grandmothers at the open dance (they, who did not get to dance because of hate...yes I'm that old) and then I sit down or go shopping at the stands...I get the looks but I always have my whole life after introducing my cousins and my own brother & sister, with their beautiful dark skin...that's right I'm the Redhead...had to have one!!! and I'm It!! the Only One!!! In The Whole Family!!!! until my 3 sons...so in my "Tears" Gown with shawl and fan, I know I Look Like a "wannabe"...But my Heart...I cannot steal my heart...my God-daugther is Apache&white, (don't look white!) and when I take her places the Natives look & laugh at me... Her family calls me "warrior woman", she calls me Mom... I am a widow... PowWow is Praise & Worship for me...a woman with more White hair than Red, with more white skin than red... My father & his brothers had to go to the boarding schools...They all 3 went to TWO wars and came back!...they were not welcomed by natives because their father was white so they never went back... this hurts so much Now that they are gone from this place and Now, After so much truth about Life and Tribe has come out, that Prayer & Praise (PowWow) is for all people... Everytime the Gourd Dancers prepare & gather & start their songs... I remember my family that did not get to hear the songs at PowWow, my Father & Uncles that could not be white or native.... and they are with me in the songs of the elders... my spirit is comforted and my soul & bones are healed...I will stand at my seat in the bleachers, with my hands out & palms up, eyes closed and pray in my own language, because I have No Idea what is being said in the songs...Yet...my soul sings and I am lifted ...So the "songs" may belong to "these" peoples and "societies" are open to "these" peoples...The Spirit of the Creator Gives Life to all peoples that hear and Blesses all peoples that honor the Spirit of Truth of the song and honors the Ministers of the song...I am healed & comforted...whether I get to "play" with y'all or not... Not that my Apache Family or my close friends of many different Nations don't Play with me... They Do... just some folk are still stuck ... Come Let's Dance... "Ole Dancing Squirrel" - SaloliAliskisku

08-03-2007, 04:50 PM	#286 (permalink)
2kiowa4u Sings 4 Him Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 56	allow mee to say this: THE KIOWA GOURD DANCE IS A MEN'S ONLY DANCE, THE KIOWA GOURD DANCE IS A MEN'S ONLY DANCE, AND THE KIOWA GOURD DANCE IS A MEN'S ONLY DANCE!!!!!!!!!!!! WOMEN DANCE ON THE OUTER PERIMETER OF THE ARENA, ONLY TIME THEY'RE ALLOWED IS TO HONOR THEIR MEN-FOLK RELATIVES ONLY!!!! UNLESS, WOMAN IS DESIGNATED HEAD LADY DANCER, BUT STILL HAS TO DANCE OUTER-PERIMETER OF ARENA. OR IF SHE'S THE AW-DAY-MAH-TAUN, AND STILL SHE HAS TO DANCE ON THE PERIMETER OF THE ARENA, UNLESS SHE'S BEING HONORED BY HER RELATIVES ONLY. ALL RESPECTS AND HONOR TO THE WOMEN WHO ARE IN THE MILITARY ACTIVE OR NON-ACTIVE. YOU STILL HAVE TO DANCE ON THE PERIMETER OF THE ARENA UNLESS YOU ARE BEING HONORED BY THE GOURD CLAN OR HOST COMMITTEE.

10-09-2007, 03:46 PM	#288 (permalink)
laokie Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: May 2003 Location: at home Posts: 90	Originally Posted by 2kiowa4u "allow mee to say this: THE KIOWA GOURD DANCE IS A MEN'S ONLY DANCE, THE KIOWA GOURD DANCE IS A MEN'S ONLY DANCE, AND THE KIOWA GOURD DANCE IS A MEN'S ONLY DANCE!!!!!!!!!!!! WOMEN DANCE ON THE OUTER PERIMETER OF THE ARENA, ONLY TIME THEY'RE ALLOWED IS TO HONOR THEIR MEN-FOLK RELATIVES ONLY!!!! UNLESS, WOMAN IS DESIGNATED HEAD LADY DANCER, BUT STILL HAS TO DANCE OUTER-PERIMETER OF ARENA. OR IF SHE'S THE AW-DAY-MAH-TAUN, AND STILL SHE HAS TO DANCE ON THE PERIMETER OF THE ARENA, UNLESS SHE'S BEING HONORED BY HER RELATIVES ONLY. ALL RESPECTS AND HONOR TO THE WOMEN WHO ARE IN THE MILITARY ACTIVE OR NON-ACTIVE. YOU STILL HAVE TO DANCE ON THE PERIMETER OF THE ARENA UNLESS YOU ARE BEING HONORED BY THE GOURD CLAN OR HOST COMMITTEE." Well said 2Kiowa4u. That's the way it has always been....and the way it should always be!! End of story. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ "A PROUD KIOWA"