RedbirdsVision

Okay, I have one more question. Why is it sometimes okay to photogrpah gourd dancing and sometimes not? I thought we weren't supposed to allow photos. Then I saw a section here for photos. I haven't looked to see if they are of the actual dance but I know there is a lot of ambiguity about the photo thing. I never know whether we are going to be photographed or not. I'm a photogrpaher, so I understand the purpose of photos as ways of remembering, preserving and sharing, so don't get me wrong...I like pictures, and I like taking them, but I don't understand why sometimes it's a big no-no and other times it's not, or who makes the decisions about when it's okay and when it isn't.

Thank you for sharing about the gourd dance with me. It makes me more able to act appropriately.

Huronwoman

I guess I really strirred up a hornet's nest the post i replied to concerned the need to arrive on time for the Gourd Dance, now it has become an issue of whether the women should be allowed to dance in the proper manner behind the circle supporting the men. I always dance in regalia and only began goud dancing this past year 2005 after being invited to join in by the head gourd dancer. I dance to give honor to the men and to my family which is all military any many whom have given the ultimate scarifice for our country. The gourd dance has gone through many changes of late but allowing women to dance outside the circle and to be respectful of the men and not crossing in front of them when lining up and all other proper etiquette should be observed. I agree that this is a man's dance and that we women are dancing in a stictly supportive roll, my own service to this country aside, I will follow whatever the society agrees to and if I must I will dance by my chair.

A-ho

KSComanche

I have been reading the posts here for some time, guess I'll put in my two cents worth.

I have been honored to be Head Gourd Dancer at several dances fro different organizations, both Comanche and Kiowa.
I learned teh most about the orgins and protocol of teh dance from two elder Kiowas, Parker Emhoola and Billy-Evans Horse.
A woman dancing like teh men in teh gourd dance is totaly wrong and unacceptable. I have seen a woman veteran being honored, brought forward to dance in line with the men, for one song, but not as one of them, that is about as close as it should ever get. "Political Correctness" is not a part of our culture or history.
I did observe a woman at a Comanche dance attempt to dance with the men. The head dancer asked her to leave.
As nations, the history and cultures of our folks are under attack and disappearing at an alarming pace.
We have an obligation to maintain teh history and traditions of our peoples lest we ceaseto exist other than as a display in some museum.

musicedu77

its just like women's grass dancing...just not done...why try to change tradition? i have never seen women gourd dancers and its my only 2 cents but iwas always told that women should only be allowed to dance behind the men not in the arena with the men.

WhoMe

Redbirds,

I can see your confusion about photographing gourd dancers.

Normally, photographing and video-taping gourd dancers is allowed. There are numerous gourd dancing photographs taken at numerous gourd dances throughout the nation - in the powwows.com photo galleries.

For some reason at some Cali powwows, the powwow committee do not allow photography and will have the emcee announce this rule.

I can see this rule enforced particularly when a commercial photographer wants to use these photographs for commercial use.

__________________
"Today, recognizing and respecting the origins of powwow aids in our Cultural Survival. If enough people break the rules because they are not satisfied...."We will have no culture."

WhoMe

Huronwoman

I think I was misunderstod, I have not danced with the men inside the circle but outside the circle in the line with the other women and am proud to do so, my heart soars like a hawk to dance for these wonderful men who have given service military or not. I cetanly do not wish to offend anyone!!

Judy

Kio-Manche

When I'm at a gourd dance and the cameras and videos come out, I smile big to show off my crooked yellow teeth. I also pull my britches outta my krak and re-tuck in my shirt. Ha, ha, ha,.....

__________________
Kio-Manche
Oklahoma Proud!!!

Homalosa

Also from California I thought this was the rule all over as well until a few years ago someone sent me pictures of Ben Wolf gourd dancing at GON when he was head Southern Judge. The photos are property of GON, but I figured it must not be such a big deal in other places.

__________________
Honor and respect your elders!



"Until the lion learns to speak the tales of hunting will always favor the hunter."
-K'Naan
O-BAM-UH!!!!



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Huronwoman

I still think that although us women have in many ways earned the right to dance with the men it is still a man's dance and since it is not our place to change tradition I am happy and proud to dance behind the men in a supportive roll, dosen't mean my battle scars are fewer or my deed any less brave but that is between myself and my Creator.

Eagle Plumes

I am Cheyenne, i dance where im supposed to behind my Husband , brothers, ext. I have a sister retired Navy i know shw would not dance where she did not belong, when i dance i dance with pride along side the ladies supporting the men. Im proud of all vets man and woman , i have seen the sneers and snickers of people who were not happy, and drums either not singing or leaving. Ive seen dancers take off their things and putting them away or leaving. In our culture every one has their place and things we each do and woman Gourd is not one of them.

KeenKiowaBabe4Ever

I understand that now a days kids and the younger generation think that it is alright to dance along the side of the men, I must say NO!! My father was a founder of the TiaPaih Society of Carnegie, south of carnegie and when women dance they dance on the outer ring. Of course the women have moved up in positon in many years dancing inside the ring, but when my father use to talk about it, as on the tape he left, the women danced outside the circle and thats the way of the old. I stand by that and I always have for when i gourd dance i still dance outside the circle and the men have the whole circle. Its the ole ways and I dont believe that should at all change. Sorry thats just the way I was taught by the elders.
Thankyou for listening to my opinion.

__________________

Zeke

This entire thread smacks of intellectual masturbation. Why? Because, every generation, something changes. It is that way now, it has always been that way. A failure to recognize that “living cultures” live is quite shortsighted. (And, if we’re not a living culture, “who gives a damn?” That means we’re already museum pieces.) Hardcore traditionalists truly annoy me. Here's why:

Take a good hard look at the votes cast in this poll. More then 1/4 of those counted indicate an affirmative answer, in some manner, to the concept of women gourd dancers. Twenty-five percent! (I’m sure that number has gone up dramatically in just my lifetime.) To believe that other, more radical, changes cannot [will not?] occur in another 35 years is ridiculous. “Tradition” is merely a trend that has been sanctified by age.

Examples of things that are not traditional, per se, but have been converted from trends due to age?

1. Fancy Dancing
2. M.C.’s
3. “Princesses”

Heck, what about things that are not even “tribal”, but have become “traditional” parts of our culture due to longevity?

1. Government cheese
2. Unemployment
3. Mad Dog 20/20

Regardless of how folks feel about it, there will be female guard dancers – easily – within my lifetime. Twenty-five percent (and steadily increasing) is not an ignorable percentage of society. “That’s just the way it is.” Culture either lives or dies, and folks can see it however they wish, but status quo is done.

WhoMe

Zeke,

It is easy to use the rationale of "change is inevitable" when this dance doesn't have the same meaning and history to you as it does to the Kiowa people.

Among the Kiowa, the gourd dance is more than a dance. There are things that take place "not known to outsiders" - for a reason, that are associated with this ceremony.

Sure, change is inevitable.

But as long as there are Kiowa who know their traditions and reasons for doing this dance,



"This particular change of women dancing with a gourd," ain't gonna happen.

__________________
"Today, recognizing and respecting the origins of powwow aids in our Cultural Survival. If enough people break the rules because they are not satisfied...."We will have no culture."

WhoMe