A history of the Gourd Dance. - Page 5

Zotigh · 10-15-2004, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NDNTacO49

Hey Scott My familys camp is were you first drive in from the road down the hill.... can you guess my name??? I give you a clue it starts with K.....

I can't wait to find your camp, NDNTacO49. You're good folk.

Cya in July, bud.

Zotigh · 10-16-2004, 11:01 PM

Koomsa's camp at the bottom to the left. Is that the "K"?

WhoMe · 10-19-2004, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LSS

To my understanding, (and please anyone, if I'm incorrect, please help me out here) many of the tribes there in Oklahoma and in the surrounding areas that are noted for strong ties within our "southern culture" belong to the same language family.

__

LSS:

You need do a litt-ttle more research *L

In the state of Oklahoma there are presently 39 tribes who have tribal headquarters. Collectively, they belong to the following language families:

Algonquian, Athapascan, Caddoan, Iroquoian, Muscogean, Modoc, Siouan, Tonkawan, Yuchi (Euchee) and Uto-Aztecan.

The Kiowa people who I have consulted, believe they are NOT associated with the Tanoan language, so I respect how they view their culture and their language - above the opinions of scholars and linguists.

The diversity of Oklahoma tribes is more diverse than any other state or province. In the state of Oklahoma there are three indigenous tribes. The rest of the tribes either migrated or were forced to what was then Indian Territory - from such diverse areas as what are now the states of:

California, Idaho, Arizona, Montana, Illinois, Michigan, New York, Delaware, North Carolina, Georgia, Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, Arkansas, Texas, Nebraska and even Canada!

Each of these tribes brought with them, their own traditions and customs associated with their region of origin.

GrayDog · 10-19-2004, 05:58 PM

It's true.....All of us don't know everything! Ignorance is only corrected by asking questions and researching.

Quote:

Originally Posted by miss tradish

don't get all defensive....stuff that people say on here does make me mad..but we can't help their ignorance.....what about my other question?...

LSS · 10-19-2004, 10:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhoMe

__

LSS:

You need do a litt-ttle more research *L

In the state of Oklahoma there are presently 39 tribes who have tribal headquarters. Collectively, they belong to the following language families:

Algonquian, Athapascan, Caddoan, Iroquoian, Muscogean, Modoc, Siouan, Tonkawan, Yuchi (Euchee) and Uto-Aztecan.

The Kiowa people who I have consulted, believe they are NOT associated with the Tanoan language, so I respect how they view their culture and their language - above the opinions of scholars and linguists.

The diversity of Oklahoma tribes is more diverse than any other state or province. In the state of Oklahoma there are three indigenous tribes. The rest of the tribes either migrated or were forced to what was then Indian Territory - from such diverse areas as what are now the states of:

California, Idaho, Arizona, Montana, Illinois, Michigan, New York, Delaware, North Carolina, Georgia, Florida, Alabama, Mississippi, Arkansas, Texas, Nebraska and even Canada!

Each of these tribes brought with them, their own traditions and customs associated with their region of origin.

WhoMe,

Thanks for correcting me like I asked :)....my elders...lol

Yeah...I had no idea so many DIFFERENT, and I stress different again, language groups there were....

See, thats why I've been wanting to make it out that way for some time....lol

LSS

oklagourddancer · 10-20-2004, 03:36 AM

I am a member of the Oklahoma Gourd Dance Society which was brought to us from the Kiowa tribe and we all ways try to honor the traditions that the Kiowa have. We wear long sleeved shirts, moccasins, sash, bandoleer of mescal beans, silver and some bone. We also wear a robe of red and blue with yellow trim. We place the ribbons that we have from service on the left side but most importantly we have a patch with the POW/MIA on the right side to honor those did not come home. If someone wears as hat into the circle or short sleeved shirt our AD will ask them to remove the hat or leave. I believe that to have honor you must honor the ones that have gone before.

Tsogoudle · 10-20-2004, 03:27 PM

Who me. Ah-ho. You are correct. Kiowas do not consider our language Tanoan and they don't trust anthropologist. We are originally from the north. Our tradition & culture reflects our northern roots. I don't know where they got this Tanoan thang!
We get alot of flak because we protect what Kiowa tradition(s) we have left. Many people get insulted when they come to our dances and bring their pow-wow style. I've seen mc's ask people to remove their hats in respect to our dance,songs,drum or leave the arena and generally.........they leave the arena. What irks me the most is to go to pow-wows & hear gourd songs where they've taken out the words and then pound & drum so fast you feel like your in a chipmunk movie! People don't understand the meaning of the songs nor where they belong or how to really sing them. We have 3 warrior societies still in existance to day, they are ceremonial, Kiowa Black Leggings, Ohumah Lodge & Kiowa Gourd Clan and you have to be Kiowa to dance, sing & drum at these. Hobbiest come all the time but they aren't allowed to participate. So we get "talked" about all the time but our culture is still in existance because the tribe does protect these societies.

TacO5000 · 10-20-2004, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tsogoudle

Who me. Ah-ho. You are correct. Kiowas do not consider our language Tanoan and they don't trust anthropologist. We are originally from the north. Our tradition & culture reflects our northern roots. I don't know where they got this Tanoan thang!
We get alot of flak because we protect what Kiowa tradition(s) we have left. Many people get insulted when they come to our dances and bring their pow-wow style. I've seen mc's ask people to remove their hats in respect to our dance,songs,drum or leave the arena and generally.........they leave the arena. What irks me the most is to go to pow-wows & hear gourd songs where they've taken out the words and then pound & drum so fast you feel like your in a chipmunk movie! People don't understand the meaning of the songs nor where they belong or how to really sing them. We have 3 warrior societies still in existance to day, they are ceremonial, Kiowa Black Leggings, Ohumah Lodge & Kiowa Gourd Clan and you have to be Kiowa to dance, sing & drum at these. Hobbiest come all the time but they aren't allowed to participate. So we get "talked" about all the time but our culture is still in existance because the tribe does protect these societies.

A-HO!! Well Said

and I agree with the Gourd Dance singing (singing too fast)or they do a war-dance beat, It just don't sound right, or they don't throw in the howl at the end....

Some ppl...Just Mul-bane

TacO5000 · 10-20-2004, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zotigh

I can't wait to find your camp, NDNTacO49. You're good folk.

Cya in July, bud.

My first name begins with a K..... My Family are the Botones

Tsogoudle · 10-26-2004, 01:17 PM

NdnTaco49,You must be a drummer/singer. It is good that young people like you learn, its the only way our traditions will live on. Like you, I was raised around Kiowa songs & dance, I never knew what "fancy shawl" and "jingle" was until I started going to pow-wows but in respect to the way I was raised have never danced any other way or dressed any other way but Kiowa because thats how I was raised. I do enjoy learning, watching and seeing other tribes dances & songs.
I think what some people cannot understand about gourd songs & dance is that traditional/ceremonial Kiowa Gourd have a history within our tribe, its not something we took from another tribe. The words in the songs are Kiowa, modern pow-wow versions have just taken out the words cause they couldn't say them. They were not pow-wow songs at one time in our culture, it belonged in our sun dance. Our sun dance was stopped by the government years ago because they feared the might of the Kiowa Tribe when it gathered. Our songs & dance were kept by Kiowas who refused reservation life. I am one of these descendants. Some have been revived while other societies were left and few elders today still know the words & songs of these societies.
I don't want to be argumentative but that story about the Cheyenne/Kiowa version, well, I disagree (as a Kiowa). The Kiowas did allie with the Cheyenne Tribe against invading forces. But both tribes have their own culture & traditions and have never accused each other of stealing anything from one another. Even if ya got that story from a book, it doesn't make it true. Anthropologist have written all kinds of stuff but that doesn't make it (true) history! Our own stories tell our history.
Back to the Gourd Dance its not a matter of who owns what, its a matter of tribal history & respect. And as you said about the "jingle dance" has been modernized those who take it upon themselves to dance that dance should at least know & respect what it is, why it is danced, etc and so it is with the Gourd Dance. I think thats all thats been said. Botones? From Dodge? Me too, my Kiowa name is T'so-goodle-hoawn-mayee (Redstone Woman). From guess where, Redstone!!!! (You have to be Kiowa to know these things!)

TacO5000 · 10-26-2004, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tsogoudle

NdnTaco49,You must be a drummer/singer. It is good that young people like you learn, its the only way our traditions will live on. Like you, I was raised around Kiowa songs & dance, I never knew what "fancy shawl" and "jingle" was until I started going to pow-wows but in respect to the way I was raised have never danced any other way or dressed any other way but Kiowa because thats how I was raised. I do enjoy learning, watching and seeing other tribes dances & songs.
I think what some people cannot understand about gourd songs & dance is that traditional/ceremonial Kiowa Gourd have a history within our tribe, its not something we took from another tribe. The words in the songs are Kiowa, modern pow-wow versions have just taken out the words cause they couldn't say them. They were not pow-wow songs at one time in our culture, it belonged in our sun dance. Our sun dance was stopped by the government years ago because they feared the might of the Kiowa Tribe when it gathered. Our songs & dance were kept by Kiowas who refused reservation life. I am one of these descendants. Some have been revived while other societies were left and few elders today still know the words & songs of these societies.
I don't want to be argumentative but that story about the Cheyenne/Kiowa version, well, I disagree (as a Kiowa). The Kiowas did allie with the Cheyenne Tribe against invading forces. But both tribes have their own culture & traditions and have never accused each other of stealing anything from one another. Even if ya got that story from a book, it doesn't make it true. Anthropologist have written all kinds of stuff but that doesn't make it (true) history! Our own stories tell our history.
Back to the Gourd Dance its not a matter of who owns what, its a matter of tribal history & respect. And as you said about the "jingle dance" has been modernized those who take it upon themselves to dance that dance should at least know & respect what it is, why it is danced, etc and so it is with the Gourd Dance. I think thats all thats been said. Botones? From Dodge? Me too, my Kiowa name is T'so-goodle-hoawn-mayee (Redstone Woman). From guess where, Redstone!!!! (You have to be Kiowa to know these things!)

My Gma lives in carniegie (down in frybread flats)(you have to be kiowa to know were thats at!)she is married to a kabin.....My Great Grandpa was Delos Botone.

WhoMe · 10-28-2004, 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by NDNTacO49

My Gma lives in carniegie (down in frybread flats)(you have to be kiowa to know were thats at!)she is married to a kabin.....My Great Grandpa was Delos Botone.

___

"ZameThay"

Places that only Kiowas know about (from Car-nay-gee Dah):

4-Corners
Fry Bread Flats
Corn Bread's
The Park
Chieftan's
Greg's
Worm's
Chili's
Moon Light Mile
The Complex
Red Buffalo Hall
and of course "Ice Dock"

na-na-na-na

*L

Kio-Manche · 10-30-2004, 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WhoMe

___

"Ice Dock"

na-na-na-na

*L

Good times and cold beer...
ITS WHERE WE WANNA BE!

10-16-2004, 11:01 PM	#82 (permalink)
Zotigh USMC Join Date: May 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 289	Koomsa's camp at the bottom to the left. Is that the "K"? __________________ Scott Zotigh Kiowa Black Leggings Kiowa Gourd Clan Kiowa Tiah Piah Kiowa Marine Veterans American Indian Veterans

10-20-2004, 03:36 AM	#86 (permalink)
oklagourddancer Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Tahlequah, Okla. Posts: 1	Gourd Dancing I am a member of the Oklahoma Gourd Dance Society which was brought to us from the Kiowa tribe and we all ways try to honor the traditions that the Kiowa have. We wear long sleeved shirts, moccasins, sash, bandoleer of mescal beans, silver and some bone. We also wear a robe of red and blue with yellow trim. We place the ribbons that we have from service on the left side but most importantly we have a patch with the POW/MIA on the right side to honor those did not come home. If someone wears as hat into the circle or short sleeved shirt our AD will ask them to remove the hat or leave. I believe that to have honor you must honor the ones that have gone before.

10-20-2004, 03:27 PM	#87 (permalink)
Tsogoudle Koi Mah-yee Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 32	Who me. Ah-ho. You are correct. Kiowas do not consider our language Tanoan and they don't trust anthropologist. We are originally from the north. Our tradition & culture reflects our northern roots. I don't know where they got this Tanoan thang! We get alot of flak because we protect what Kiowa tradition(s) we have left. Many people get insulted when they come to our dances and bring their pow-wow style. I've seen mc's ask people to remove their hats in respect to our dance,songs,drum or leave the arena and generally.........they leave the arena. What irks me the most is to go to pow-wows & hear gourd songs where they've taken out the words and then pound & drum so fast you feel like your in a chipmunk movie! People don't understand the meaning of the songs nor where they belong or how to really sing them. We have 3 warrior societies still in existance to day, they are ceremonial, Kiowa Black Leggings, Ohumah Lodge & Kiowa Gourd Clan and you have to be Kiowa to dance, sing & drum at these. Hobbiest come all the time but they aren't allowed to participate. So we get "talked" about all the time but our culture is still in existance because the tribe does protect these societies. Last edited by Tsogoudle; 10-20-2004 at 03:35 PM.

10-26-2004, 01:17 PM	#90 (permalink)
Tsogoudle Koi Mah-yee Join Date: Oct 2004 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 32	NdnTaco49,You must be a drummer/singer. It is good that young people like you learn, its the only way our traditions will live on. Like you, I was raised around Kiowa songs & dance, I never knew what "fancy shawl" and "jingle" was until I started going to pow-wows but in respect to the way I was raised have never danced any other way or dressed any other way but Kiowa because thats how I was raised. I do enjoy learning, watching and seeing other tribes dances & songs. I think what some people cannot understand about gourd songs & dance is that traditional/ceremonial Kiowa Gourd have a history within our tribe, its not something we took from another tribe. The words in the songs are Kiowa, modern pow-wow versions have just taken out the words cause they couldn't say them. They were not pow-wow songs at one time in our culture, it belonged in our sun dance. Our sun dance was stopped by the government years ago because they feared the might of the Kiowa Tribe when it gathered. Our songs & dance were kept by Kiowas who refused reservation life. I am one of these descendants. Some have been revived while other societies were left and few elders today still know the words & songs of these societies. I don't want to be argumentative but that story about the Cheyenne/Kiowa version, well, I disagree (as a Kiowa). The Kiowas did allie with the Cheyenne Tribe against invading forces. But both tribes have their own culture & traditions and have never accused each other of stealing anything from one another. Even if ya got that story from a book, it doesn't make it true. Anthropologist have written all kinds of stuff but that doesn't make it (true) history! Our own stories tell our history. Back to the Gourd Dance its not a matter of who owns what, its a matter of tribal history & respect. And as you said about the "jingle dance" has been modernized those who take it upon themselves to dance that dance should at least know & respect what it is, why it is danced, etc and so it is with the Gourd Dance. I think thats all thats been said. Botones? From Dodge? Me too, my Kiowa name is T'so-goodle-hoawn-mayee (Redstone Woman). From guess where, Redstone!!!! (You have to be Kiowa to know these things!)