Zotigh

At the annual Kiowa Gourd Clan, and at the other Kiowa society dances the drum is not smack-dab in the middle of the circle where the dancers need to move. (Probably not healthy anyway with sharp lances dancing about and weapons going off...hehe (toh-kohn-gah))

I think that my personal respect-o-meter is going to go sky high for the first dance I go to where the drum is NOT in the middle of the arena (for the gourd dancing session). It may be customary for the drum to be in the center for other tribe's type of dancing. It's not so for the Kiowa gourd dance.

Has anyone been to a dance where the drum has not replaced the night-time bon-fire?

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Scott Zotigh
Kiowa Black Leggings
Kiowa Gourd Clan
Kiowa Tiah Piah
Kiowa Marine Veterans
American Indian Veterans

powwowbum49

Well, I do not doubt the drum in the middle of the arena has to do with the tendency of most host/southern drums being in the middle at most dances in OK. I would say that the logistics of moving the head singer and his boys out of the center for gourd and then back for intertribals is probably a factor as well.

I know I have seen gourd sessions outside of OK with the drum on the side, but unfortunately most of the dancers have never been to Kiowa country and were pretty lost and even commented that it just felt awkward to them that the drum was not in the middle. Now I do have to say that at these dances all the drums wear already out on the sides through the whole dance.

I got a couple of questions to go with the original post.

Do you think the fact that at the Kiowa ceremonials the drum being on the side has anything to do with the fact that the Kiowa started out up north and moved south? Is this tradition a remnant of the Kiowa's northern roots?

Next...Would you really want to see all the powwow gourd dances doing things exactly as the Kiowa do, since the meaning for many in attendance is not the same as it is to the Kiowa?

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PB49

"Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once we grow up." Pablo Picasso


My comments are based on what I have been taught and my experiences over the years I have been around the circle. They should in no way be taken as gospel truths and are merely my opinions or attempts at passing on what I have learned while still learning more.

durty-kawdayz49

They have the drum in the middle when they have dances at red buffalo hall. when it ceremonial time the drum is on the east side.

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give good sing hard and try not to fart infront a fine flat butt babe!

Zotigh

That is probably the reason for it.


I can empathize. It's kinda awkward having the drum in the middle for some of us.


Sounds interesting. I'm not a historian. The Kiowas come from up north. Yes. Does that affect the placement of the drum. I don't know. There are some good historians on these boards, though. I hope one will be able to answer that question. I'd like to know, too.


hmmm...the gourd dance is Kiowa. Do I want the Kiowa gourd dance to be done exactly like the Kiowa gourd dance? hehe

I know that some folks believe that the gourd dance is theirs. I cannot travel back in time to prove whether it is or it is not. I can only believe what my ancestors told me, that it is Kiowa, and respect the thoughts of others that feel it is theirs also. But, for those that are knowingly dancing the Kiowa gourd dance, yes...it'd be good if the dance were kept faithfully.

If my great-grandparents were alive today and attended a gourd session, would they recognize it? How many small changes accumulating over time before what we call a 'gourd dance' no longer shares enough similarities with the original so as to have its strongest connection be simply the name?

I'd still like to attend a gourd session at some dance where the drum was not in the middle.

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Scott Zotigh
Kiowa Black Leggings
Kiowa Gourd Clan
Kiowa Tiah Piah
Kiowa Marine Veterans
American Indian Veterans

Tom Iron Eagle

I know that in my Travels I have seen the Drum in the middle, to the side, and other places (raised platform or stage, orchestra like pit, docks, etc.) for Gourd Dances and regular Events.

Not sure what the original protocal would be as Zotigh mentions that we can not go back in time.

But with so many dances being in so many places (check out the thread about the most unusal place to powwow) logisitics and space often determines were the Drums and even the Dancing is going to be anymore.

Zotigh

It's an interesting topic to me because, although it appears to be an issue of simple drum placement, this placement of the drum in the middle has had a ripple of effects on the dance itself.

In Kiowa gourd dancing, one is expected to move about the circle in no certain direction, and to not stay in one place for the whole dance. The whip-man is there to ensure this. The drum out of the middle gives more room to move about, and counters the tendency to meander clockwise around the drum as in war dancing. Having the drum to one side also removes the focus from the drum.

Have you seen at some dances where when the drum reaches the heavy beat all the dancers will face the drum as if it's somehow part of the gourd dancing ritual?

Or how at some dances some of the dancers will line up in columns and dance around the drum...gourd dancing, but in a war dance procession?

How about other dances where all the gourd dancers just stand in place around the edge of the arena, rarely moving from their spots unless there is a honoring?

The drum in the middle for gourd dancing has in many ways contributed to the changes taking place in the dance.

These are my observations.

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Scott Zotigh
Kiowa Black Leggings
Kiowa Gourd Clan
Kiowa Tiah Piah
Kiowa Marine Veterans
American Indian Veterans

Tom Iron Eagle

Excellent Zotigh.

Those are fantastic examples of how Drum placement effects everything and can really upset the flow of what is to be going on.

I have seen similar things happen many times not just with Gourd Dancing, but with other special dances like some Traditional Dances of The South East Nations (my cultural area).

In your examples, the Drum in the middle, almost makes one think that it is not even Gourd Dancing taking place.

Zotigh

Thank you, Tom.

I'm glad someone else see's the effect.

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Scott Zotigh
Kiowa Black Leggings
Kiowa Gourd Clan
Kiowa Tiah Piah
Kiowa Marine Veterans
American Indian Veterans

powwowbum49

Scott

I do agree with you that with the drum in the middle, it does limit the movement of the dancers and tends to cause, those that have never had the chance to go down to kiowa country for one of the gourd dances, to dance in more of a war dances fashion. But I see this more of a lack of traveling/learning on the dancers part rather than the placement of the drum. Yes, the physical limitation of space and the drum taking up a large area of the floor is problematic, but it can be overcome by the dancers if they choose to.

Some of the things that you mentioned are not just being done but also being taught. I have seen folks outside of Kiowa country teaching others that there are certain ways to dance these songs. That as the song starts, one sort of shuffles from side to side until the first hard beat at which point they slowly dance forward until the tempo picks up. At that point they are to stop and begin 'bouncing'/dancing in place until the next hard beat when they can start moving forward again and so on. Always progressing toward the drum in the middle.

So do the other tribes that also claim to be the originators of the gourd dance, or the tribes/groups that they have given the dance to also have the drum on the side at their dances? I have never attended any of their gourd dances? If so then this could also be the reason that the drum is regularly seen in the middle. And more over, since other tribes also claim gourd dance do/should they also dance it the same as the Kiowa?

Now as to my last question in my prior post. What I was trying to get at was that if every gourd dance you went to was danced just like at Kiowa Gourd Clan, then would the Gourd Clan dance still hold as much meaning, since it's members could then get most of the same things at every other dance they attended? Yes, the every little change can add up over time, but isn't the Gourd Clan dance really a time for the Kiowa's to be Kiowa and celebrate that unity. So then isn't the fact that the dance there is different from most all the others, a good thing?

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PB49

"Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once we grow up." Pablo Picasso


My comments are based on what I have been taught and my experiences over the years I have been around the circle. They should in no way be taken as gospel truths and are merely my opinions or attempts at passing on what I have learned while still learning more.

Zotigh

Is the gourd dance public domain or tribal property?

Depending on how you personally think of the dance ownership will pretty much answer your own question regarding whether we should try to keep the gourd dance true to its origins or not.

As I said before...for those knowingly dancing the Kiowa gourd dance, I'd like to see them keep it faithfully.

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Scott Zotigh
Kiowa Black Leggings
Kiowa Gourd Clan
Kiowa Tiah Piah
Kiowa Marine Veterans
American Indian Veterans

powwowbum49

I can most definately agree with that, and would add that I would like to see them educate others on how they know to dance the dance, just as we have been doing here. Giving folks things to think about. Just maybe that can slow the tide of 'little changes'.

This has been a good thread ... good rep to you ole boy!

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PB49

"Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once we grow up." Pablo Picasso


My comments are based on what I have been taught and my experiences over the years I have been around the circle. They should in no way be taken as gospel truths and are merely my opinions or attempts at passing on what I have learned while still learning more.

CHEROSAGE

I have a memory of being in Carnegie, OK in '92 while I was stationed in Ft. Sill. Late July, my wife and I went to Carnegie for a dance. I was invited to sing with some friends. I sat at the center drum. The Cozads had their drum set up near the stage, we were in the gym, at the edge of the area where the dance was.

I know that I sat at the drum to help Joe Cozad sing at the '92 CIVA gourd dance. The drum was in the center.

I guess I'm saying all of this to say that it is difficult for others to learn these correctness's if the correctness is not practiced in the locals own backyard.

Just my thoughts and observations. I too was not aware of this drum protocol.

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BOB