Getting Started

LSS · 11-01-2003, 08:23 AM

I have question on getting a drum started singing Gourd Dance...

I am by no means a member of a Gourd Dance Society or am I from Oklahoma. However, I have been introduced to the Gourd Dance Ceremony and have sang during a Gourd Dance Ceremony on several occassions.

It has come to me that several young men are interested in singing and while they have an interest in singing southern (and the fact that southern is the only thing I do now) I felt like it was appropriate for them to learn about the Gourd Dance Ceremony as well. I mean, I feel like if anyone is gonna sing Southern they need to learn about the history, origin and all the things that go along with they Oklahoma Native style of singing.

So, I guess my question is this....

Do a Lead (Head) Singer/Group have to have permission from a Gourd Dance Society in order to learn/sing Gourd Dance?

Also, what are some other thoughts on getting a young drum group started with singing? I will also post the same thing in the Southern Singing section.

LSS

park · 11-03-2003, 12:32 PM

I would recommend that these young men attend a few gourd dances before making a decision on learning the songs. Preferably a gourd dance in southwest OK or a dance run by people who know what they are doing, have been doing it for a while, and have been sanctioned by proper societies in OK.

I am not aware of any singer needing permission to sing gourd dance songs, just as I am not aware of a requirement that you be a member to dance. I know of singers in OK who are not society members. It helps, however, for people to know who you are so there is no question about your motivation. Of course, it would be best to learn from the source, not from a set of tapes.

IMHO gourd dance songs are trickier than southern intertribal songs. I say that because a lot are family songs, some have words that should only be used at the appropriate time and place, the songs should be sung in a rough (but understood) order, and they are somewhat different in structure.

By the way, while formal society dances have a lot of tradition and protocol (for lack of better words), I don't think I would typically call a gourd dance a "ceremony."

CHEROSAGE · 11-04-2003, 12:07 AM

May I recommend that you and your group go to Southwest OK ,ie, lawton/Carnegie area. Go watch, ask to be able to sit in on the drum.

I don't know of any requirements to have special permission to sing these songs. Just learn the correctness of these songs and their general sequence.

The true requirement is to enjoy and have fun!!!!!!

Peacekeeper83 · 11-08-2003, 08:54 PM

I agree with the two previous posts..you cannot just say you are going to be a gourd singer..you have to learn everything about it...Knowing all the family songs...when they are appropriate to sing...when to sing the song with words and without...knowing how to say the words properly...you don't want to offend a family member by butchering their song. Its not an easy road...but one well worth it,if you do it the right way...

SBZ4life · 11-09-2003, 06:23 PM

I agree with those guys, like I said before. Learn from someone that knows that the heck they are talking about. There are certain songs sung at certain times. It kinda kills the whole mood when someone sings a song out of place. Plus to save a lot of embarrasment, take a year or more to learn these songs, and whatever history they have behind them. THEN you decide if you want to sing em. and forget about drum groups...try the center drum.

Peacekeeper83 · 11-10-2003, 09:23 AM

I agree with SBZ4life...the center drum is the best place to learn...thats where I am learning at...and you usually have alot of experienced singers,who don't mind helping you out.I have had some well known singers sitting next to me..lean over, out of the blue and explain a certain songs history.I think the best advice I can give...is keep a hand held recorder on you and record while you sing...you might end up getting alot of useful history with a few songs ....

Peacekeeper83 · 11-10-2003, 04:08 PM

First....I am not a hobbyist....as I stated..I am with Texas Kiowa Tia Piah....if you know who the Kiowa Tia Piah headsman are...you will know who I was refering to... since I dance at Chieftain Park...and camp behind Hess Bointy...might give you the insight enough to know I am not a hobbyist... its funny you attack who I am...without asking,my Kiowa ties...but I see your point of what has you a bit riled...but you must also accept...the Gourd Dance was given to other people to enjoy...such as the Gourd Clan passing it to the Otoe/Missouri and Osage...or Kiowa Tia Piah passing it to Gulf Coast

LSS · 11-10-2003, 10:33 PM

Folks....lets please keep this civil. The thread was posted to receive ideas from people on how to best go about learning Gourd Dance. For me, I've been learning on some Gourd Dance material for about a year. And I know I am no where near where I need to be. But in due time, that will come to be. I mean lets face it, a Gourd Dance here on the East Coast is not the same as a Gourd Dance in Oklahoma. However, I think the Gourd Dances here on the East Coast serves there purpose... For many who have to relocate, they love to have that little piece of home with them and I'm sure they really do appreciate it.

I'm having a hard time thinking about things right now...so, I'm gonna say TTFN!

LSS

park · 11-10-2003, 11:15 PM

Apparently you've missed the point. According to Monie, unless you get permission from her, you can't learn about, much less attend, a gourd dance.

LSS · 11-11-2003, 07:14 AM

Monie, I'm not going to sit here and argue with you. However, if what you say is true, then you are saying that some of my friends who are Kiowa (and even those of close Kiowa ancestry) do not exist.

That is a pretty bold statement little lady:)

These Kiowas, amongst other people, are sharing things with other people so that they can have that little piece of home while they are away from home. And we share some things with them as well...its a two way street.

Apparently, the issue is not about being Kiowa, Ponca, Osage, Saponi, Tuscarora, Meherrin, etc. The biggest issue these days are whether or not someone is respectful and mature enough to handle the responsibility that goes along with learning something that is not a common practice.

LSS

Pawnee Warrior · 11-11-2003, 11:38 AM

Good reply LSS!
monie professes to be the authority of all Kiowa ways, but I find it odd that you don't even list your tribe on your profile! If anyone here needs to learn about Kiowa ways, I think it's monie! If you looked into things you would discover that indeed the Kiowas did teach and give permission to a few other tribes to perform the gourd dance. Learn your own history before you jump all over others!! Of course, I guess if one were to read your posts, they would see that no one has permission to do anything Kiowa unless you personally give permission.

park · 11-11-2003, 11:49 AM

Apparently the only real Kiowas with the right to gourd dance are members of Gourd Clan that never leave the park in downtown Carnegie.

That's sure is a small world.

But it doesn't account for the Kiowa Gourd Clan splitting into two, and eventually three, different groups.

mamacat · 11-11-2003, 04:01 PM

How can you guys be so disrespectful of the Kiowas? How would you like it if someone ripped off your stuff? And the Texas Gulf Coast Tiah Piah bunch are mainly white...tend to look like Disneyland on acid at their powwows, I can tell you.

Monie, I don't think these folks are Indian - not even thin-blood from the way they come across, just pushy as all get out like white folks - old time white folks. Stick to your guns, you're doing great!

Pawnee Warrior · 11-11-2003, 04:46 PM

hmmmmm....... anyone else get the feeling monie and mamcat just might be the same person?

I suggest everyone ignore this person and continue the discussion. And monie/mamacat I would love to see you at any other powwow go up to the host gourd clan and inform them they have no right to do that dance! I am not being disrespectful of the Kiowas cuz everyone but you it seems knows they gave other tribes permission years ago to perform the gourd dance. If the tribe has permission then an individual from that tribe has the right to be brought in and dance that dance. They don't have to ask permission again, unless their tribe doesn't have permission. Then by all means you're right and they should ask the right way.

11-01-2003, 08:23 AM	#1 (permalink)
LSS Sappling! Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 833	Getting Started I have question on getting a drum started singing Gourd Dance... I am by no means a member of a Gourd Dance Society or am I from Oklahoma. However, I have been introduced to the Gourd Dance Ceremony and have sang during a Gourd Dance Ceremony on several occassions. It has come to me that several young men are interested in singing and while they have an interest in singing southern (and the fact that southern is the only thing I do now) I felt like it was appropriate for them to learn about the Gourd Dance Ceremony as well. I mean, I feel like if anyone is gonna sing Southern they need to learn about the history, origin and all the things that go along with they Oklahoma Native style of singing. So, I guess my question is this.... Do a Lead (Head) Singer/Group have to have permission from a Gourd Dance Society in order to learn/sing Gourd Dance? Also, what are some other thoughts on getting a young drum group started with singing? I will also post the same thing in the Southern Singing section. LSS __________________ To get a true picture of your purpose in life, you only get the whole picture when you listen with your mind, your ears and your heart. This way The Creator has a direct connection with you and only you...no outside interference. When you follow the will of IT that created you, understanding that your purpose is not for you...but for IT and all that IT has created, there can be no wrong except failure to be obedient. Only then do we jeopardize the gifts we are given. Its not the final destination that defines us, rather the journey taken!

11-04-2003, 12:07 AM	#3 (permalink)
CHEROSAGE Pow Wow Committee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: , mo Posts: 1,316	May I recommend that you and your group go to Southwest OK ,ie, lawton/Carnegie area. Go watch, ask to be able to sit in on the drum. I don't know of any requirements to have special permission to sing these songs. Just learn the correctness of these songs and their general sequence. The true requirement is to enjoy and have fun!!!!!! __________________ BOB

11-08-2003, 08:54 PM	#4 (permalink)
Peacekeeper83 a Peace of......... Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: just where the southern plains end...and the hill country begin... Posts: 1,081	I agree with the two previous posts..you cannot just say you are going to be a gourd singer..you have to learn everything about it...Knowing all the family songs...when they are appropriate to sing...when to sing the song with words and without...knowing how to say the words properly...you don't want to offend a family member by butchering their song. Its not an easy road...but one well worth it,if you do it the right way... __________________ We spend a lifetime worrying about if we make a difference....Marines don't have that problem.

11-09-2003, 06:23 PM	#5 (permalink)
SBZ4life ~Southernz Elite~ Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Room 112 Posts: 799	I agree with those guys, like I said before. Learn from someone that knows that the heck they are talking about. There are certain songs sung at certain times. It kinda kills the whole mood when someone sings a song out of place. Plus to save a lot of embarrasment, take a year or more to learn these songs, and whatever history they have behind them. THEN you decide if you want to sing em. and forget about drum groups...try the center drum. __________________ :indian2: MIRROR MIRROR ON THE WALL, JEAN CLAUDE VAN DAMME IM FINE:muscles: " say what I feel, I say what I think, I say what you do not like, Yet for some reason what I say is somewhat correct" Chief Big Beef 1999

11-10-2003, 09:23 AM	#6 (permalink)
Peacekeeper83 a Peace of......... Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: just where the southern plains end...and the hill country begin... Posts: 1,081	I agree with SBZ4life...the center drum is the best place to learn...thats where I am learning at...and you usually have alot of experienced singers,who don't mind helping you out.I have had some well known singers sitting next to me..lean over, out of the blue and explain a certain songs history.I think the best advice I can give...is keep a hand held recorder on you and record while you sing...you might end up getting alot of useful history with a few songs .... __________________ We spend a lifetime worrying about if we make a difference....Marines don't have that problem.

11-03-2003, 12:32 PM	#2 (permalink)
park Junior Dancer Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 120	I would recommend that these young men attend a few gourd dances before making a decision on learning the songs. Preferably a gourd dance in southwest OK or a dance run by people who know what they are doing, have been doing it for a while, and have been sanctioned by proper societies in OK. I am not aware of any singer needing permission to sing gourd dance songs, just as I am not aware of a requirement that you be a member to dance. I know of singers in OK who are not society members. It helps, however, for people to know who you are so there is no question about your motivation. Of course, it would be best to learn from the source, not from a set of tapes. IMHO gourd dance songs are trickier than southern intertribal songs. I say that because a lot are family songs, some have words that should only be used at the appropriate time and place, the songs should be sung in a rough (but understood) order, and they are somewhat different in structure. By the way, while formal society dances have a lot of tradition and protocol (for lack of better words), I don't think I would typically call a gourd dance a "ceremony."

11-10-2003, 04:08 PM	#7 (permalink)
Peacekeeper83 a Peace of......... Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: just where the southern plains end...and the hill country begin... Posts: 1,081	First....I am not a hobbyist....as I stated..I am with Texas Kiowa Tia Piah....if you know who the Kiowa Tia Piah headsman are...you will know who I was refering to... since I dance at Chieftain Park...and camp behind Hess Bointy...might give you the insight enough to know I am not a hobbyist... its funny you attack who I am...without asking,my Kiowa ties...but I see your point of what has you a bit riled...but you must also accept...the Gourd Dance was given to other people to enjoy...such as the Gourd Clan passing it to the Otoe/Missouri and Osage...or Kiowa Tia Piah passing it to Gulf Coast __________________ We spend a lifetime worrying about if we make a difference....Marines don't have that problem.

11-10-2003, 10:33 PM	#8 (permalink)
LSS Sappling! Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 833	Folks....lets please keep this civil. The thread was posted to receive ideas from people on how to best go about learning Gourd Dance. For me, I've been learning on some Gourd Dance material for about a year. And I know I am no where near where I need to be. But in due time, that will come to be. I mean lets face it, a Gourd Dance here on the East Coast is not the same as a Gourd Dance in Oklahoma. However, I think the Gourd Dances here on the East Coast serves there purpose... For many who have to relocate, they love to have that little piece of home with them and I'm sure they really do appreciate it. I'm having a hard time thinking about things right now...so, I'm gonna say TTFN! LSS __________________ To get a true picture of your purpose in life, you only get the whole picture when you listen with your mind, your ears and your heart. This way The Creator has a direct connection with you and only you...no outside interference. When you follow the will of IT that created you, understanding that your purpose is not for you...but for IT and all that IT has created, there can be no wrong except failure to be obedient. Only then do we jeopardize the gifts we are given. Its not the final destination that defines us, rather the journey taken!

11-10-2003, 11:15 PM	#9 (permalink)
park Junior Dancer Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 120	Dear LSS Apparently you've missed the point. According to Monie, unless you get permission from her, you can't learn about, much less attend, a gourd dance.

11-11-2003, 07:14 AM	#10 (permalink)
LSS Sappling! Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 833	Monie, I'm not going to sit here and argue with you. However, if what you say is true, then you are saying that some of my friends who are Kiowa (and even those of close Kiowa ancestry) do not exist. That is a pretty bold statement little lady:) These Kiowas, amongst other people, are sharing things with other people so that they can have that little piece of home while they are away from home. And we share some things with them as well...its a two way street. Apparently, the issue is not about being Kiowa, Ponca, Osage, Saponi, Tuscarora, Meherrin, etc. The biggest issue these days are whether or not someone is respectful and mature enough to handle the responsibility that goes along with learning something that is not a common practice. LSS __________________ To get a true picture of your purpose in life, you only get the whole picture when you listen with your mind, your ears and your heart. This way The Creator has a direct connection with you and only you...no outside interference. When you follow the will of IT that created you, understanding that your purpose is not for you...but for IT and all that IT has created, there can be no wrong except failure to be obedient. Only then do we jeopardize the gifts we are given. Its not the final destination that defines us, rather the journey taken!

11-11-2003, 11:38 AM	#11 (permalink)
Pawnee Warrior Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: OK Posts: 16	Good reply LSS! monie professes to be the authority of all Kiowa ways, but I find it odd that you don't even list your tribe on your profile! If anyone here needs to learn about Kiowa ways, I think it's monie! If you looked into things you would discover that indeed the Kiowas did teach and give permission to a few other tribes to perform the gourd dance. Learn your own history before you jump all over others!! Of course, I guess if one were to read your posts, they would see that no one has permission to do anything Kiowa unless you personally give permission.

11-11-2003, 11:49 AM	#12 (permalink)
park Junior Dancer Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 120	Hmmmm Apparently the only real Kiowas with the right to gourd dance are members of Gourd Clan that never leave the park in downtown Carnegie. That's sure is a small world. But it doesn't account for the Kiowa Gourd Clan splitting into two, and eventually three, different groups.

11-11-2003, 04:01 PM	#13 (permalink)
mamacat Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Nov 2003 Posts: 2	!!!!!! How can you guys be so disrespectful of the Kiowas? How would you like it if someone ripped off your stuff? And the Texas Gulf Coast Tiah Piah bunch are mainly white...tend to look like Disneyland on acid at their powwows, I can tell you. Monie, I don't think these folks are Indian - not even thin-blood from the way they come across, just pushy as all get out like white folks - old time white folks. Stick to your guns, you're doing great!

11-11-2003, 04:46 PM	#14 (permalink)
Pawnee Warrior Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: OK Posts: 16	hmmmmm....... anyone else get the feeling monie and mamcat just might be the same person? I suggest everyone ignore this person and continue the discussion. And monie/mamacat I would love to see you at any other powwow go up to the host gourd clan and inform them they have no right to do that dance! I am not being disrespectful of the Kiowas cuz everyone but you it seems knows they gave other tribes permission years ago to perform the gourd dance. If the tribe has permission then an individual from that tribe has the right to be brought in and dance that dance. They don't have to ask permission again, unless their tribe doesn't have permission. Then by all means you're right and they should ask the right way.