Getting Started - Page 2

park · 11-12-2003, 11:21 AM

PWB49: That's a thought provoking point about Kiowas performing non-Kiowa dances.

It also runs directly counter to Monie's post under Straight Dancing/Resources, where she stated to someone interested in learning about Straight Dance: "Go visit the people who are the caretakers of that dance, since the Cherokee never were straight dancers."

It seems that appropropriating another tribe's culture is OK, so long as it's not Kiowa.

Buh!

SBZ4life · 11-12-2003, 05:49 PM

*clears throat*

Ive seen a lot of "gourd dance" societies, nothing but hobbiest and anglo's to be correct, been to gourd dances out east and even been to gourd dances out west with the Dine. Lets just say, THEY ALL do it differently from the kiowas and the surrounding areas. Those people want to gourd dance and sing gourd dance SOOOO bad that they will make up a society, or make up a drum group. And not know diddley squat about it.*sigh* I figure if LSS wants to sing gourd dance, then he is gonna sing it, probaly not in Oklahoma..or even southwest oklahoma. Just take a lil trip to Oklahoma, can be Carniege Park, Chieftain Park or even Tia Piah Park, come to the drum(if allowed) and.....nevermind...no matter what anyone says LSS is gonna sing these songs. I understand what everyone else is saying, thats why the internet sucks, people talking their smack. I would love to sing with LSS.........

bqueton · 11-12-2003, 08:35 PM

I hate to tell you this Monie; but it's our own Kiowa singers that are taking the Gourd dance all over. Im sure you know who they are. I've seen them all over from Conneticut to California singing our family songs. It was our own Kiowa people that took the Gourd dance out to New Mexico and down to Texas. There are alot of Kiowas all over the country now that have taken the Gourd dance out with them. Dont blame the non-kiowas for mimicing. Blame all our Kiowa relative that went out and sold our Kiowa ways.

bqueton · 11-12-2003, 09:26 PM

What makes me laugh is that its the same elders right there in Carnegie that preach about the Kiowa songs and dances and how we shouldn't be taken out are the ones I've seen at other big contest powwows doing exhibitions. They're also the same ones who put all our songs on recording to be sold.

monie · 11-12-2003, 09:29 PM

Well, that is them. I don't think our headsmen do that.

I'm out of this discussion.

I said my peace. Next time you can talk to them out there in the contest world. I don't contest.

WhoMe · 11-14-2003, 01:11 PM

_______

LSS:

The advice is solid about going down to Oklahoma to learn songs. There are dances every single weekend in Carnegie and other surrounding communities.

There are some important things to consider when wanting to learn Kiowa songs. There are special songs that are to be sung at certain occasions. Again, please go down to Kiowa country and sit in at the center drum during a gourd dance session.

Just as long as you are Indian you are normally welcome to sit at the center drum during the winter benefit dances. Unfortunately, during the summer Kiowa Gourd Clan "CEREMONIES," only Kiowa men are allowed to sit around the drum.

To the Kiowa, the gourd dance IS a significant part of ceremonial history and way of life. It is not something to be played with. This is why many Kiowa people are so protective of it.

monie:

"Kgoh doe, High Yigh daw. Gyah tigh gyah."

WhoMe · 11-17-2003, 06:24 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by monie
Hah-tso

aunga-aim-hawn-date taw hote-thoy-koy keanh-heenhs

kaw awhn aw high-yigh daw

k'awnday saw-phowdle thaw-koys

_____

monie:

We don't need to speak in front of other people on this thread. I will pm you.

SBZ4life · 11-18-2003, 03:56 PM

yall quit spittin

[]FlyByNyte[] · 11-18-2003, 07:05 PM

4 Realz

monie · 11-18-2003, 08:34 PM

Sorry i don't take PM's.

If you know Kiowa try to type words here. I don't know where these idiots come up with "spitting" when Kiowas talk their language.

Quit using our gourd dance and songs if you don't like it. Just because you have to copy us, don't be hating.

ew, I don't know of anyone who spits when they talk. How ignorant, Coming at choo!

Mahbane kiyguh

SBZ4life · 11-19-2003, 11:37 AM

Im a lil mahbane......

WhoMe · 11-19-2003, 12:53 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by monie
Sorry i don't take PM's.

If you know Kiowa try to type words here.

____

monie:

"Pboy phah k'goy thon'e sza-nee-tah. High-yaht-toe bah oh-hote-thaw."

____

I can't think of one noted Kiowa singer who has not travelled out of state to share gourd dance songs. Many Kiowas who are no longer with us can still be heard on the Indian House recording as well as various other recordings which are "public domain."

I agree when other people get a hold of the gourd dance, many things change from the way it is practiced at the Kiowa Gourd Clan Ceremonials.

But, then again. . . The annual Kiowa Gourd Clan celebration IS a ceremonial and not the same as gourd dances at powwows.

SBZ4life · 11-19-2003, 01:56 PM

I got Bote~Cope

bqueton · 11-19-2003, 02:13 PM

I somewhat agree with you. On the tapes they only sing certain songs. Now when you go to a gourd dance somewheres other than Kiowa Country you here a lot of songs sung out of place, Family songs that were never put on the drum, the mustang songs at the start of the gourd dance, stuff like that. People don't know what they're singing. I was head singer a few weeks ago and sang charlie brown for a special (yes it was called for), everyone got mad and said now we cant gourd dance anymore, that was the quiting song. There aint no quiting song. And where did it start with this supper song. Someone told me i forgot to sing the supper song once. I was amazed. Someone told me I wasn't singing my own family song (Bointy) right once. He didnt' even know it was a family song. I have no problem with the gourd dance out there. I just wish the people who gave it out would actually teach the people what it is, where it came from, what it means, etc. If your gonna sing, learn the songs, the meanings, which ones are family songs, etc.

Basically, if your gonna do it, make sure you learn it. If your gonna take it out there, make sure you teach it. There is no other way of doing it. Its a Kiowa dance. Learn it that way or just don't do it!

LSS · 11-19-2003, 06:36 PM

bqueton,

Well said...this is the point I've been trying to make. And its not just w/ Kiowa songs,....its with anything new/foreign to who/what you are.

CHEROSAGE · 12-09-2003, 02:39 AM

I first want to appologize for my abrupt absence. I work for my county's Sheriff along with my main job with the state. This is also deer season, enough said.

I want to thank bqueton for your comments along with others. I appreciate your knowledge. Not being Kiowa I along with others don't know these Kiowa words. I do understand the family song and have our own family song. It is frustraiting when your song is not sung correctly or someone else tries to correct you when you sing your own song. I'm not really a singer and do rely on certain singers to know my song and sing it right. I do recognise songs when sung but I do not know the name of any song.

These things need to be taught to those that are out there using these songs. Teach them. People will continue to Gourd dance/ sing irregardless whether they are Kiowa or not. This concept is what I believe needs to happen, not argue who can or cannot dance/sing the Gourd dance. It is true that we out here are not dancing the ceremonies but just a Powwow Gourd dance if you want to call it that. Dancers now days are not generally educated in the Gourd dance prior top thier just up and joining in.

Again thank you for the education in a civil manner. I also believe we should know our own ways first then we can try to understand others.
WA-Do.

Abeartracks · 12-11-2003, 10:57 AM

I am curious? Does anyone care to share your knowledge on what you believe to be the Origin of the Gourd Dance? As far as You know

11-12-2003, 11:21 AM	#21 (permalink)
park Junior Dancer Join Date: Feb 2001 Posts: 121	The hypocrisy has landed PWB49: That's a thought provoking point about Kiowas performing non-Kiowa dances. It also runs directly counter to Monie's post under Straight Dancing/Resources, where she stated to someone interested in learning about Straight Dance: "Go visit the people who are the caretakers of that dance, since the Cherokee never were straight dancers." It seems that appropropriating another tribe's culture is OK, so long as it's not Kiowa. Buh!

11-12-2003, 05:49 PM	#22 (permalink)
SBZ4life ~Southernz Elite~ Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Room 112 Posts: 799	clears throat Ive seen a lot of "gourd dance" societies, nothing but hobbiest and anglo's to be correct, been to gourd dances out east and even been to gourd dances out west with the Dine. Lets just say, THEY ALL do it differently from the kiowas and the surrounding areas. Those people want to gourd dance and sing gourd dance SOOOO bad that they will make up a society, or make up a drum group. And not know diddley squat about it.sigh I figure if LSS wants to sing gourd dance, then he is gonna sing it, probaly not in Oklahoma..or even southwest oklahoma. Just take a lil trip to Oklahoma, can be Carniege Park, Chieftain Park or even Tia Piah Park, come to the drum(if allowed) and.....nevermind...no matter what anyone says LSS is gonna sing these songs. I understand what everyone else is saying, thats why the internet sucks, people talking their smack. I would love to sing with LSS......... __________________ :indian2: MIRROR MIRROR ON THE WALL, JEAN CLAUDE VAN DAMME IM FINE:muscles: " say what I feel, I say what I think, I say what you do not like, Yet for some reason what I say is somewhat correct" Chief Big Beef 1999

11-12-2003, 09:29 PM	#25 (permalink)
monie Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 16	Contests Well, that is them. I don't think our headsmen do that. I'm out of this discussion. I said my peace. Next time you can talk to them out there in the contest world. I don't contest.

11-18-2003, 03:56 PM	#28 (permalink)
SBZ4life ~Southernz Elite~ Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Room 112 Posts: 799	yall quit spittin __________________ :indian2: MIRROR MIRROR ON THE WALL, JEAN CLAUDE VAN DAMME IM FINE:muscles: " say what I feel, I say what I think, I say what you do not like, Yet for some reason what I say is somewhat correct" Chief Big Beef 1999

11-18-2003, 08:34 PM	#30 (permalink)
monie Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 16	no pm's Sorry i don't take PM's. If you know Kiowa try to type words here. I don't know where these idiots come up with "spitting" when Kiowas talk their language. Quit using our gourd dance and songs if you don't like it. Just because you have to copy us, don't be hating. ew, I don't know of anyone who spits when they talk. How ignorant, Coming at choo! Mahbane kiyguh Last edited by monie; 11-18-2003 at 09:04 PM.

11-12-2003, 08:35 PM	#23 (permalink)
bqueton Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 92	I hate to tell you this Monie; but it's our own Kiowa singers that are taking the Gourd dance all over. Im sure you know who they are. I've seen them all over from Conneticut to California singing our family songs. It was our own Kiowa people that took the Gourd dance out to New Mexico and down to Texas. There are alot of Kiowas all over the country now that have taken the Gourd dance out with them. Dont blame the non-kiowas for mimicing. Blame all our Kiowa relative that went out and sold our Kiowa ways.

11-12-2003, 09:26 PM	#24 (permalink)
bqueton Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 92	What makes me laugh is that its the same elders right there in Carnegie that preach about the Kiowa songs and dances and how we shouldn't be taken out are the ones I've seen at other big contest powwows doing exhibitions. They're also the same ones who put all our songs on recording to be sold.

11-14-2003, 01:11 PM	#26 (permalink)
WhoMe PauWau Coordinator Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Land of 370 Broken Treaties Posts: 5,559	_______ LSS: The advice is solid about going down to Oklahoma to learn songs. There are dances every single weekend in Carnegie and other surrounding communities. There are some important things to consider when wanting to learn Kiowa songs. There are special songs that are to be sung at certain occasions. Again, please go down to Kiowa country and sit in at the center drum during a gourd dance session. Just as long as you are Indian you are normally welcome to sit at the center drum during the winter benefit dances. Unfortunately, during the summer Kiowa Gourd Clan "CEREMONIES," only Kiowa men are allowed to sit around the drum. To the Kiowa, the gourd dance IS a significant part of ceremonial history and way of life. It is not something to be played with. This is why many Kiowa people are so protective of it. monie: "Kgoh doe, High Yigh daw. Gyah tigh gyah."

11-19-2003, 11:37 AM	#31 (permalink)
SBZ4life ~Southernz Elite~ Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Room 112 Posts: 799	Im a lil mahbane...... __________________ :indian2: MIRROR MIRROR ON THE WALL, JEAN CLAUDE VAN DAMME IM FINE:muscles: " say what I feel, I say what I think, I say what you do not like, Yet for some reason what I say is somewhat correct" Chief Big Beef 1999

11-19-2003, 01:56 PM	#33 (permalink)
SBZ4life ~Southernz Elite~ Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Room 112 Posts: 799	I got Bote~Cope __________________ :indian2: MIRROR MIRROR ON THE WALL, JEAN CLAUDE VAN DAMME IM FINE:muscles: " say what I feel, I say what I think, I say what you do not like, Yet for some reason what I say is somewhat correct" Chief Big Beef 1999

11-19-2003, 02:13 PM	#34 (permalink)
bqueton Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Aug 2003 Posts: 92	I somewhat agree with you. On the tapes they only sing certain songs. Now when you go to a gourd dance somewheres other than Kiowa Country you here a lot of songs sung out of place, Family songs that were never put on the drum, the mustang songs at the start of the gourd dance, stuff like that. People don't know what they're singing. I was head singer a few weeks ago and sang charlie brown for a special (yes it was called for), everyone got mad and said now we cant gourd dance anymore, that was the quiting song. There aint no quiting song. And where did it start with this supper song. Someone told me i forgot to sing the supper song once. I was amazed. Someone told me I wasn't singing my own family song (Bointy) right once. He didnt' even know it was a family song. I have no problem with the gourd dance out there. I just wish the people who gave it out would actually teach the people what it is, where it came from, what it means, etc. If your gonna sing, learn the songs, the meanings, which ones are family songs, etc. Basically, if your gonna do it, make sure you learn it. If your gonna take it out there, make sure you teach it. There is no other way of doing it. Its a Kiowa dance. Learn it that way or just don't do it!

11-19-2003, 06:36 PM	#35 (permalink)
LSS Sappling! Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 871	bqueton, Well said...this is the point I've been trying to make. And its not just w/ Kiowa songs,....its with anything new/foreign to who/what you are. __________________ To get a true picture of your purpose in life, you only get the whole picture when you listen with your mind, your ears and your heart. This way The Creator has a direct connection with you and only you...no outside interference. When you follow the will of IT that created you, understanding that your purpose is not for you...but for IT and all that IT has created, there can be no wrong except failure to be obedient. Only then do we jeopardize the gifts we are given. Its not the final destination that defines us, rather the journey taken!

12-09-2003, 02:39 AM	#36 (permalink)
CHEROSAGE Pow Wow Committee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: , mo Posts: 1,341	I first want to appologize for my abrupt absence. I work for my county's Sheriff along with my main job with the state. This is also deer season, enough said. I want to thank bqueton for your comments along with others. I appreciate your knowledge. Not being Kiowa I along with others don't know these Kiowa words. I do understand the family song and have our own family song. It is frustraiting when your song is not sung correctly or someone else tries to correct you when you sing your own song. I'm not really a singer and do rely on certain singers to know my song and sing it right. I do recognise songs when sung but I do not know the name of any song. These things need to be taught to those that are out there using these songs. Teach them. People will continue to Gourd dance/ sing irregardless whether they are Kiowa or not. This concept is what I believe needs to happen, not argue who can or cannot dance/sing the Gourd dance. It is true that we out here are not dancing the ceremonies but just a Powwow Gourd dance if you want to call it that. Dancers now days are not generally educated in the Gourd dance prior top thier just up and joining in. Again thank you for the education in a civil manner. I also believe we should know our own ways first then we can try to understand others. WA-Do. __________________ BOB

12-11-2003, 10:57 AM	#37 (permalink)
Abeartracks Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 11	As far as You Know I am curious? Does anyone care to share your knowledge on what you believe to be the Origin of the Gourd Dance? As far as You know