Gourd dancing is not a veterans dance - Page 2

LSS · 10-18-2004, 07:23 PM

Its amazing how ones own perspective on such matters change as we mature.......Pay me no mind right now for bringing this "titanic" from the depths of the sea.....I couldn't leave my last post there as it made no sense.

Zotigh · 03-08-2006, 02:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeke

As previously indicated, I bear no ill will. (Nor did you imply as such.)

I was merely appalled by the uninhibited proclamations of the thread originator. They created, for me, an overall picture of an ignorant Indian Eminem hiding ongoing feelings of personal cultural inadequacy through overt manifestations of social grandeur. (It made me ill.) This was clearly not the “humble young adult” of which your eloquent tag line specifies.

Of course, there was never any significant point in my making reply [to him]. If one cannot spell where you “have ties”, then you clearly are not in possession of enough knowledge to have intelligent discourse on any topic. With such a handicap, the often contradictory and always environmentally malleable etiquette of the gourd dance may as well be rocket science! (…taught on Mars, in gibberish, by Al Sharpton…):Angel:

Are there any Gibberish to English translators here?

SBZ4life · 03-17-2006, 01:11 PM

*yawn*....Its a K'k'k'k'k'k'iowa dance. yee!

sltate · 03-17-2006, 01:59 PM

LOL, well.....my dad was inducted into the Kiowa Tia-piah Society, in Lawton, and we used to come for their celebration every year. I thought the dance was Kiowa. Then I married a Comanche and was told that it was originally a Comanche dance(aka Little Ponies). So.....whoever started it, it has reached out to several states and tribes, some not knowing what the heck was going on just liked to dance. LOL
To appreciate and respect a dance, you must know the origin(s) therefore abiding by the boundaries that are enforced. That saves alot of embarrassment in the long run. When in doubt, ask.......don't assume anything when it comes to native american traditions and dances because there are reasons for boundaries and guidelines, some that have been handed down only by verbal communication, not written in ink or voted upon by anyone..simply done because that is the way it was originated.

Chilimama · 03-20-2006, 08:12 PM

How odd that the Comanche say that the Gourd Dance is their original dance. When I was messing around Oklahoma back in the early 60's, I met an elderly Comanche lady (her name was Mary, can't remember her last name) who was in her 80's and we were dicussing different tribal dances. She said that the only dance that belonged to her tribe was the Rabbit Dance. She said that's what her grandparents told her. I thought the Cheyennes and Kiowas had this dance in their history. I have heard the Kiowa gourd dance songs that are sung in their language and belong to families and chiefs and have been told that these songs have been passed down. Never have heard any other of the other tribe's songs. Isn't that kind of strange? To hold claim to a dance and not have any songs to go along with it? Explain this to me Who Me.

WhoMe · 03-21-2006, 11:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chilimama

Explain this to me Who Me.

Who? Me? WhyMe? *L

This much is true. . .(Sounds like a song, ennit?)

Many tribes "had" a ceremonial dance that involved a gourd (ie. Cheyenne, Comanche, Ponca, Caddo, Wichita, Apache, Arapaho and Pawnee, etc.) at one time, as part of their culture.

The modern gourd dance, as we do it today, has the most Kiowa elements that are practiced ...... including songs.

Any comment?

KSComanche · 03-23-2006, 03:09 AM

The Elder Comanche that I have spoken to have all said the Gourd Dance started among the Kiowa, and was shared with our Comanche folk( ya know, its getting harder and harder to seperate the two, dern Kiowas keep coming over fer dinner and all)..
The songs and traditions of the Gourd Dance are Kiowa, pretty much a non-issue here......

kiowakat · 03-24-2006, 12:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by KSComanche

The Elder Comanche that I have spoken to have all said the Gourd Dance started among the Kiowa, and was shared with our Comanche folk( ya know, its getting harder and harder to seperate the two, dern Kiowas keep coming over fer dinner and all)..
The songs and traditions of the Gourd Dance are Kiowa, pretty much a non-issue here......

did somebody say dinner??

suthernwaterbird · 05-11-2006, 09:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zeke

ignorant Indian Eminem

Dang Whome he called you Eminem. LoL.

So let's note what we have accomplished today. We have continued an argument that has been taking place since the actual birth of this dance. Now another story of the gourd dance, from the Comanche side(and not necessarily just the Comanches), is that it is a combination of the Sun Dance, Ghost Dance, and the Animal dances. But I am not speaking on behalf of the Comanche Nation, just from what little knowledge that has been shared with me. Forgive me all who are more knowledgable and more qualified to speak that are viewing this thread.

apacheheart · 05-11-2006, 11:00 PM

...Called my dad while reading thid thread,and he said the same thing....it's the Kiowas who originated Gourd Dance,and all the songs,at least the one's he's heard,were ALL done in Kiowa.....nuff said on my part.Keep smilin'1

Steffan Redhawk · 05-12-2006, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apacheheart

...Called my dad while reading thid thread,and he said the same thing....it's the Kiowas who originated Gourd Dance,and all the songs,at least the one's he's heard,were ALL done in Kiowa.....nuff said on my part.Keep smilin'1

I live in Michigan,

There is a HUGE lack of Kiowa blood in the area, most of the pow wows I attend are in indiana, ohio, michigan, sometimes I travel out, but not so much the past few years.

There is a gentlemen that MC's a few pow wows (Will post name if it's requested) who always states during the gourd dance that only VETERAN MEN can do this dance, and always tells the women who stand behind their man to sit down.

This man also says that teens, and young men can not do this dance, I know it's not true, my Grandfather used to have me gourd dance with him when I was younger, my father, not so much, but my GPA always had me out there with him, used to dance with alot of my old friends out there....

I've tried to goto this man in a good way (for several years) and try to talk to him, and it just turns into a shouting match, he's very bullheaded. I'm not a vet, and no, I'm not Kiowa (although my uncle is)..

As far as I know, this guy only MC's about 4 pow wows a year, he's a great MC, does his job well, he just doesn't know about some things, and I'm not sure who passed this information down to him, he does not share his sources...

How should I go about this problem? There are young men, who are being taught in this area, that they should NOT be gourddancing... I guess I'm just at a loss... any suggestions would be helpful.

Zotigh · 05-12-2006, 01:28 AM

You could lead by example.

You could tell the folks that dance with you that the Gourd Dance is not a veterans dance. Being more ancient than the modern military..how could it be?

The Gourd Dance was once part of our Sun Dance. "Our" Sun Dance = Kiowa. Don't know what you did in your sun dance.

Kiowas don't perform "sweats" as you suggest as part of our dance. Not sure where you heard that.

You could lead by example and show the young folks that you are speaking of those things you know about the dance, so that it continues to be a dance that you even care to be part of, and not a washed out, meaningless gesture some folks are making it to mean.

If our dance is important to you or anyone else reading this thread, then you will honour it and do you part in keeping it a special legacy to yourself and yours.

You speak fondly of our dance being passed down to you as if it has value. And, that is encouraging. When you pass our dance on, I hope it will be a dance that they feel has the same value as when it was passed on to you.

Our traditions are worth protecting. What you uphold and protect in your life is what you will pass to yours. The value is up to you. Up to all of us.

I hope your children and mine value and respect the legacy of our dance equally.

Steffan Redhawk · 05-12-2006, 04:20 AM

I appriciate your good words, and advice.

I know that the sweat has nothing to do with the gourd dance, the reason I brought that up in another thread was to clarify that the gourd dance wasn't a ceremony (like a sweat)...

Was not trying to compare the gourd dance to a sweat, or a longhouse, I just wanted to ensure that it wasn't a ceremonial dance.

See, the way I was taught, was that the dance was a special dance, but it is also held in the eye of the dancer, some dance for spirit, some for fun, some just for the social interaction..

I did not intend whatsoever to say that a gourd dance was part of a sweat, or anything of that sort.. For those of you whom I confused, or offended, I apologize, I will try to choose my wording more carefully.

Thank you for your good words, means alot.

10-18-2004, 07:23 PM	#21 (permalink)
LSS Sappling! Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Raleigh, NC Posts: 871	Its amazing how ones own perspective on such matters change as we mature.......Pay me no mind right now for bringing this "titanic" from the depths of the sea.....I couldn't leave my last post there as it made no sense. __________________ To get a true picture of your purpose in life, you only get the whole picture when you listen with your mind, your ears and your heart. This way The Creator has a direct connection with you and only you...no outside interference. When you follow the will of IT that created you, understanding that your purpose is not for you...but for IT and all that IT has created, there can be no wrong except failure to be obedient. Only then do we jeopardize the gifts we are given. Its not the final destination that defines us, rather the journey taken! Last edited by LSS; 07-01-2005 at 10:03 AM. Reason: my how I've matured....

03-17-2006, 01:11 PM	#23 (permalink)
SBZ4life ~Southernz Elite~ Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Room 112 Posts: 799	yawn....Its a K'k'k'k'k'k'iowa dance. yee! __________________ :indian2: MIRROR MIRROR ON THE WALL, JEAN CLAUDE VAN DAMME IM FINE:muscles: " say what I feel, I say what I think, I say what you do not like, Yet for some reason what I say is somewhat correct" Chief Big Beef 1999

05-11-2006, 11:00 PM	#30 (permalink)
apacheheart Teen Dancer Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Peekskill,NY. Posts: 261	Kiowa ,Kiowa Kiowa..... ...Called my dad while reading thid thread,and he said the same thing....it's the Kiowas who originated Gourd Dance,and all the songs,at least the one's he's heard,were ALL done in Kiowa.....nuff said on my part.Keep smilin'1

05-12-2006, 01:28 AM	#32 (permalink)
Zotigh USMC Join Date: May 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 288	You could lead by example. You could tell the folks that dance with you that the Gourd Dance is not a veterans dance. Being more ancient than the modern military..how could it be? The Gourd Dance was once part of our Sun Dance. "Our" Sun Dance = Kiowa. Don't know what you did in your sun dance. Kiowas don't perform "sweats" as you suggest as part of our dance. Not sure where you heard that. You could lead by example and show the young folks that you are speaking of those things you know about the dance, so that it continues to be a dance that you even care to be part of, and not a washed out, meaningless gesture some folks are making it to mean. If our dance is important to you or anyone else reading this thread, then you will honour it and do you part in keeping it a special legacy to yourself and yours. You speak fondly of our dance being passed down to you as if it has value. And, that is encouraging. When you pass our dance on, I hope it will be a dance that they feel has the same value as when it was passed on to you. Our traditions are worth protecting. What you uphold and protect in your life is what you will pass to yours. The value is up to you. Up to all of us. I hope your children and mine value and respect the legacy of our dance equally. __________________ Scott Zotigh Kiowa Black Leggings Kiowa Gourd Clan Kiowa Tiah Piah Kiowa Marine Veterans American Indian Veterans

05-12-2006, 04:20 AM	#33 (permalink)
Steffan Redhawk Northern Traditional Join Date: May 2006 Location: Battle Creek, Michigan Posts: 235	Thanks I appriciate your good words, and advice. I know that the sweat has nothing to do with the gourd dance, the reason I brought that up in another thread was to clarify that the gourd dance wasn't a ceremony (like a sweat)... Was not trying to compare the gourd dance to a sweat, or a longhouse, I just wanted to ensure that it wasn't a ceremonial dance. See, the way I was taught, was that the dance was a special dance, but it is also held in the eye of the dancer, some dance for spirit, some for fun, some just for the social interaction.. I did not intend whatsoever to say that a gourd dance was part of a sweat, or anything of that sort.. For those of you whom I confused, or offended, I apologize, I will try to choose my wording more carefully. Thank you for your good words, means alot. __________________ AIM: GlacierESteffan Yahoo: low_rdr ICQ: 45338941 MSN: scifiwriter@hotmail.com

03-17-2006, 01:59 PM	#24 (permalink)
sltate Senior Dancer Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: apache,ok Posts: 559	LOL, well.....my dad was inducted into the Kiowa Tia-piah Society, in Lawton, and we used to come for their celebration every year. I thought the dance was Kiowa. Then I married a Comanche and was told that it was originally a Comanche dance(aka Little Ponies). So.....whoever started it, it has reached out to several states and tribes, some not knowing what the heck was going on just liked to dance. LOL To appreciate and respect a dance, you must know the origin(s) therefore abiding by the boundaries that are enforced. That saves alot of embarrassment in the long run. When in doubt, ask.......don't assume anything when it comes to native american traditions and dances because there are reasons for boundaries and guidelines, some that have been handed down only by verbal communication, not written in ink or voted upon by anyone..simply done because that is the way it was originated.

03-20-2006, 08:12 PM	#25 (permalink)
Chilimama Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Feb 2005 Posts: 26	How odd that the Comanche say that the Gourd Dance is their original dance. When I was messing around Oklahoma back in the early 60's, I met an elderly Comanche lady (her name was Mary, can't remember her last name) who was in her 80's and we were dicussing different tribal dances. She said that the only dance that belonged to her tribe was the Rabbit Dance. She said that's what her grandparents told her. I thought the Cheyennes and Kiowas had this dance in their history. I have heard the Kiowa gourd dance songs that are sung in their language and belong to families and chiefs and have been told that these songs have been passed down. Never have heard any other of the other tribe's songs. Isn't that kind of strange? To hold claim to a dance and not have any songs to go along with it? Explain this to me Who Me.

03-23-2006, 03:09 AM	#27 (permalink)
KSComanche Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Nov 2005 Posts: 24	The Elder Comanche that I have spoken to have all said the Gourd Dance started among the Kiowa, and was shared with our Comanche folk( ya know, its getting harder and harder to seperate the two, dern Kiowas keep coming over fer dinner and all).. The songs and traditions of the Gourd Dance are Kiowa, pretty much a non-issue here......

05-16-2006, 01:33 AM	#34 (permalink)
Zotigh USMC Join Date: May 2004 Location: Texas Posts: 288