Scouting and Native Americans

Paul G · 10-09-2001, 02:39 PM

Someone sent this to me and I wanted to get the reaction of everyone here:

BOY SCOUTS- INDIAN DRESS UP AND RELIGIOUS BIGOTRY

lngfthr · 10-09-2001, 04:49 PM

I think there is some truth in it. We are forever being treated as if we are a mere curiosity instead of a living people.

On the other hand, I don't think it's anything that can't be changed. The Boy Scouts is a good program without the stereotypical "artsy-craftsy", living-in-the-past, you-can-be-one-too projects/rhetoric/etc. I sit on our Girl Scouts board and I know that these people are very meticulous about telling troop leaders how to teach about American Indian people. We've brainstormed lots of ways to make understanding more meaningful - such as the troops visiting the tribal council chambers, having elders tell stories, bringing in contemporary professionals (doctors, lawyers, etc.) and giving them learning projects. Only the Native troops actually make outfits. Others go to the pow-wows but just dance intertribals in street clothes if they want. There are plenty of ways to be respectful and still be a "part" of our culture.

That's just my opinion.

Beth · 10-09-2001, 06:28 PM

Get rid of the BSA handbook on Indians. For years I had been around people that had come to this way through scouting but had taken it much, much further. Then I read the handbook. I would have had a good laugh if the BSA wasn't serious about it. Personally, I would like to see that book burned and a new one written that would be closer to the truth.

santeeswapper · 10-09-2001, 06:48 PM

I read the article and found it be be old fashioned race baiting. Does anyone in their hearts believe that the Cub Scouts should be compared to the Hitler Youth? The brainwashing that takes place in the Taliban religous schools and arming 10 year olds with machine guns --- now that you can compare to the Hitler Youth. Teaching an 8 year old boy to "Do Your Best" and how to be a good citizen of a freedom loving country is not in the same time zone as what the article seems to point out. The author seems to want to pit "Red and Black" people against Jews and Christians. Hopefully, everyone who reads it is intelligent enough to see through the smoke screen and read it for the hate mongering that is the Nation of Islam.

BrownHornet · 10-09-2001, 07:26 PM

Hmm,
What an idiot. I would not be surprised if this is not more homosexual propoganda guised as "Nation of Islam" or whatever.

I would also like to add that this organization does have a sect that teaches and participates in some limited aspects of American Indian Culture. Some teachers are a little out of touch and some are Native themselves. Is it going to stop? I doubt it. Do I wish it would? To some extent. I hope that all you folks realize that this organization has millions of members nationwide. The Cub Scouting program is the largest division of the Boy Scouts. Associating the values of this organization with Hitler Youth, Gimme a break. The core values of this organization is Citezenship, personal fitness, and character.

I think that we all, as americans, have come togehter like no other time that most of us can remember. Lets not let articlals such as this one do what the media has already been doing a good job of, mind control.

Brown hornet

yishdioh · 10-09-2001, 08:43 PM

My sons have been Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts and I have been a Cub Scout leader. We found much of the material somewhat offense concerning Native Americans as well. They have been updating their books and have made some good changes along the way. Since we were involved, we helped others to be more respectful about all cultures. There was a tendency to be joke around rather than really learn about other cultures and we put a stop to the racist jokes being done. I was impressed by all the people who turned their act around when they realized it was hurting people. The only area we had no success with was the Boy Scout's Order of the Arrow. My children cried when they heard that Hollywood drum beat and saw the way those boys were dancing. My sons are grass dancers and couldn't comprehend what was being done on stage that was being called grass dance. Lies were being told and the audience was so attentive, taking it all in as the truth. We have offered to teach them drumming and dancing, but they don't want to talk to us. They claim to be keeping up the traditions as they learned them. I know of a good number of scouts who are Native Americans who could do performances and teach people, but we get rejecting in favor of Boy Scout groups that tour nationally and internationally misrepresenting the dances and the culture. I am not against Scouting. They are a very good organization with admirable programs to teach boys many skills and ethics. I just wish they would change their program to eliminate trying to be like Native Americans. Learning about other cultures is valuable, but should be handled carefully.

10-09-2001, 08:54 PM

Homosexual propaganda? Please explain. I went to the link and read it. Maybe we didn't read the same page? Speaking of stereotypes you represented a good one yourself. 'Homosexual propaganda'. If you weren't joking that smacks of homophobia. I hope I was reading your message wrong. Homosexuals are living, breathing people, too. The BSA is not a recruiting office for homosexuals, any more than the Catholic or Episcopal churches are because there have been cases of priests molesting young altar boys.

MrRuminator · 10-09-2001, 10:40 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by webmaster:
<STRONG>Someone sent this to me and I wanted to get the reaction of everyone here:

BOY SCOUTS- INDIAN DRESS UP AND RELIGIOUS BIGOTRY</STRONG>

If you look at the fine print on this webpage you'll see two names on there. I've been online for a long time (since about 1988)and have seen boards such as this one (Powwows.com)come and go. I remember these two guys from one board back about 1991 or 92. Old Clem couldn't spell and could barely type. The Richter guy was no better but what was really funny was both morons were at each others throats then. Now they have joined up which tells me likes attract likes. Seems to me these guys operated out of Wichita, KS and tried to start some kind of organization for Indian Children. Funny thing is that they were always several years behind the time on any particular issue.
Also seems to me that Wichita is also "host" city to a number of other "hate" groups and organizations. There's a good Indian Center there, or at least there was at one time. If anybody lives in the area, y'all need to inquire about these guys.

BrownHornet · 10-09-2001, 10:40 PM

You are very correct, we are not a recruiting ground for Homosexuals. I was trying to say that this sounded like another attempt byt he gay community to send a negative message about the Boy Scouts. they have become quite clever with there means. This is happening quite regularly these days since our great Supreme Court gave us the power to exclude them from our programs.

Yishdio, you should take your complaint to the local scout executive of the council you paricipate in. He is the chief executive officer of that particular council. I am sure that if what you say is true, then he will take corrective steps to ensure that the OA either listens to the local natives or refrain form dances.

Brown Hornet

itokasniye · 10-10-2001, 12:05 AM

Boy Scouts and the OA. Something I can relate to. I spend about 25 years in scouting of some sort. It wasnt until I became an adult that I recognized the political boy scouts. I was a scoutmaster, and explorer post advisor and yes...dance team advisor. When I first started everything was done in the 50's style, Ben Hunt for those scouters out here. The reason it was done like that is because that is the way the NDN's were doing it at the time. The problem is that the BoyScouts and the OA refused to evolve. And now they are getting nothing but grief for doing something that they actually did learn from NDN cultures. The main problem is that the adults who run the 'teams' are still in Ben hunt mode. I have seen kids try do be correct in their 'portrayal' but the adult says no. Id say more than half of the bsa and oa groups are still in the 50's when it comes to NDN culture.

Something should be done on a NATIONAL BSA/OA LEVEL to correct these things. BSA/OA has no problem sending out millions of copies of child abuse/drug and alcohol brochures to troops, they also enforce these policies like ravenous beasts. I think it is time they spend some of their millions on native culture education since they use so much of it.

ya think?

jojo · 10-10-2001, 01:41 AM

I had posted about a website: http://www.nambla.de/
but edited it because they have changed their content.
It is a very disturbing site, they used to have a link to the BSA and Boys and Girls Clubs of America on there as a method of finding boys but when I just went I couldn't find the page.
Still it is disturbing if you want to check it out.
Take care.

[ October 10, 2001: Message edited by: jojo ]

BrownHornet · 10-10-2001, 10:51 AM

This site is truly disturbing. In the late 1980's the BSA took measures to locate and remove homosexuals and pedophiles from its program. The national organization maintains a database of names who are ineligable to join the Boy Scouts based on their sexual preferences. When an adult leader joins the organization their name is cross referenced with this database and if it is remotely close, the local organization receives notice to investigate.

Much of the BSA training deals with child abuse. It has become a nationwide issue recently when the Supreme Court held that we were a private organization able to set criteria for our membership. Now, we have every gay and homosexual organization fireing everything they can at our national and local oraganization.

I also think that this relation with Indian ceremonies and the Boy Scouts is blown totally out of proportion. If you read this you would think that the ceremonies and dancing was an integral part of the program when in fact it is not. It probably makes up less than 1% of the program. In that 1% there are a few that have learned form natives and a large percentage that just doesnt know any better. I say educate those that you can and make us all better people. For those that you cant deal with, contact their local council and express your concerns. This is the only way to fix it, not just griping about it on a board.

Brown Hornet

ecaron · 10-10-2001, 02:59 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by BrownHornet:
<STRONG>...educate those that you can and make us all better people.</STRONG>

and the best place to start is with yourself. some of the things you've posted here, are truly disturbing on their own.

BrownHornet · 10-10-2001, 03:09 PM

Im sure you are going to specifly what you find to be disturbing. I have opinions just like everyone else on this board. I will continue to express them.

Brown Hornet

ecaron · 10-10-2001, 03:30 PM

you would like me to specify? i'm quite bothered by your comments on homosexuals, and the apparent connection to pedophilia.

fine to have your own opinion, but is it informed?

Beth · 10-10-2001, 08:00 PM

Have had dealings at the level BrownHornet
speaks of. Their minds need to washed out with lye soap several times over. They are
prudish, narrow minded prigs. They try to ruins peoples reputations on what they assume or surmise about a situation. Don't bother to ask the people involved just condemn on what they assume. BH you have always known that I don't like the organization and this is a big park of it. Not what they are trying to teach but the attitude of the people doing it.

jojo · 10-11-2001, 01:03 AM

Hi All,
this is an addendum to my previous post. I had originally posted a lenghty bit about pedophilia and when I realized that some of my information was no longer accurate I did a quick edit.
Pedophilia is not a homosexual thing, it is a sexual preference in and of itself. Pedophilia is sexual attraction to a child, pedophiles come in all shapes and sizes as well as all genders and classes of people. Some are attracted to same sex, some are not. Furthermore and equally disturbing, some pedophiles are very clever and will date or marry a woman with children in his age range and simply break the relationship off once the children mature and no longer fulfill his needs. I am only giving a little bit of information on pedophilia, it is a very serious issue and I believe that the more aware we are of the dangers the better. Alot of times the person will disguise his preferences in order to gain access to a certain community (BSA) or child so I do not in any way mean to imply that homosexuals are any more of a threat to children as pedophiles than are apparently straight men and women. Anyway, I can get on my soapbox about this but I just think it's important to know of these things because we have to be aware of the issues that could affect our families.
Thanks for listening and take care.
Jojo

itokasniye · 10-11-2001, 01:12 AM

Yeah maybe 1% of PROGRAM. It is mostly used on a troop or council level as something other than program. Ever been to a summercamp where they didnt do SOMETHING indian or name something indian? I havent.

I gave up on scouting 5 years ago when they sold our sumer camp just so they would have the most money when the councils merged. Council, region and national dont care about kids. they just care about saving their own asses and making money while doing it. We had a scoutmaster die from a heartattack at our camp one year. It just so happened that the Council exec was in camp at the time (the second time in 10 years). He stood there the whole time watching our staff members do CPR for an hour till the ambulence got there. The ambulence was just out of the camp exit and there he was with the insurance forms.

BSA is all MONEY.

Their are few volunteer leaders that actual care. Most of them are only there cause their son is a scout. Soon as the kid gets eagle he is gone. Sad but true.

NIENIE · 10-11-2001, 01:38 AM

When I was in college I had a communications class where one girl came dressed in her Girl Scout "Indian" dress for one of her presentations. It was brown fringed cotton with wooden beads strung on the fringe. It also had a bunch of patches on it. Merit badges? I'm not sure I didn't take in much of what she was saying. I just sat there, completely dumbfounded, and sickened. I was the only Indian in the class, pretty much the whole university. And no, I would not have felt any better if her little outfit was constructed correctly. I was pretty pissed off. I would never have my kids join one of these organizations.

10-09-2001, 02:39 PM	#1 (permalink)
Paul G Webmaster Join Date: Jan 2000 Location: Lexington, SC Posts: 14,248 Blog Entries: 1	Scouting and Native Americans Someone sent this to me and I wanted to get the reaction of everyone here: BOY SCOUTS- INDIAN DRESS UP AND RELIGIOUS BIGOTRY __________________ New to the site--Introduce Yourself Need Help--FAQ--Search Feedback--Post your suggestions MyTribalSpace.com \| NativeGatherings.com \| PowWows.com Podcast \| Indigitunes.com NativeSeek.com \| Pow Wow TV \| Pow Wow Radio \| NativeMusicSource.com Radio \| NDN411.com \| eSnag Online Dating

10-09-2001, 04:49 PM	#2 (permalink)
lngfthr Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Jun 2000 Posts: 82	I think there is some truth in it. We are forever being treated as if we are a mere curiosity instead of a living people. On the other hand, I don't think it's anything that can't be changed. The Boy Scouts is a good program without the stereotypical "artsy-craftsy", living-in-the-past, you-can-be-one-too projects/rhetoric/etc. I sit on our Girl Scouts board and I know that these people are very meticulous about telling troop leaders how to teach about American Indian people. We've brainstormed lots of ways to make understanding more meaningful - such as the troops visiting the tribal council chambers, having elders tell stories, bringing in contemporary professionals (doctors, lawyers, etc.) and giving them learning projects. Only the Native troops actually make outfits. Others go to the pow-wows but just dance intertribals in street clothes if they want. There are plenty of ways to be respectful and still be a "part" of our culture. That's just my opinion. __________________ Not better. Not worse. Just different.

10-10-2001, 12:05 AM	#10 (permalink)
itokasniye Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 80	Boy Scouts and the OA. Something I can relate to. I spend about 25 years in scouting of some sort. It wasnt until I became an adult that I recognized the political boy scouts. I was a scoutmaster, and explorer post advisor and yes...dance team advisor. When I first started everything was done in the 50's style, Ben Hunt for those scouters out here. The reason it was done like that is because that is the way the NDN's were doing it at the time. The problem is that the BoyScouts and the OA refused to evolve. And now they are getting nothing but grief for doing something that they actually did learn from NDN cultures. The main problem is that the adults who run the 'teams' are still in Ben hunt mode. I have seen kids try do be correct in their 'portrayal' but the adult says no. Id say more than half of the bsa and oa groups are still in the 50's when it comes to NDN culture. Something should be done on a NATIONAL BSA/OA LEVEL to correct these things. BSA/OA has no problem sending out millions of copies of child abuse/drug and alcohol brochures to troops, they also enforce these policies like ravenous beasts. I think it is time they spend some of their millions on native culture education since they use so much of it. ya think? __________________ The brighter the light, the deeper the shadow.

10-10-2001, 01:41 AM	#11 (permalink)
jojo Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 24	I had posted about a website: http://www.nambla.de/ but edited it because they have changed their content. It is a very disturbing site, they used to have a link to the BSA and Boys and Girls Clubs of America on there as a method of finding boys but when I just went I couldn't find the page. Still it is disturbing if you want to check it out. Take care. [ October 10, 2001: Message edited by: jojo ] __________________ "Moral excellence comes about as a result of habit" Aristotle

10-11-2001, 01:03 AM	#17 (permalink)
jojo Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Jun 2000 Location: Memphis, TN Posts: 24	Hi All, this is an addendum to my previous post. I had originally posted a lenghty bit about pedophilia and when I realized that some of my information was no longer accurate I did a quick edit. Pedophilia is not a homosexual thing, it is a sexual preference in and of itself. Pedophilia is sexual attraction to a child, pedophiles come in all shapes and sizes as well as all genders and classes of people. Some are attracted to same sex, some are not. Furthermore and equally disturbing, some pedophiles are very clever and will date or marry a woman with children in his age range and simply break the relationship off once the children mature and no longer fulfill his needs. I am only giving a little bit of information on pedophilia, it is a very serious issue and I believe that the more aware we are of the dangers the better. Alot of times the person will disguise his preferences in order to gain access to a certain community (BSA) or child so I do not in any way mean to imply that homosexuals are any more of a threat to children as pedophiles than are apparently straight men and women. Anyway, I can get on my soapbox about this but I just think it's important to know of these things because we have to be aware of the issues that could affect our families. Thanks for listening and take care. Jojo __________________ "Moral excellence comes about as a result of habit" Aristotle

10-09-2001, 06:28 PM	#3 (permalink)
Beth Beth Join Date: Feb 2000 Location: over the rainbow Posts: 199	Get rid of the BSA handbook on Indians. For years I had been around people that had come to this way through scouting but had taken it much, much further. Then I read the handbook. I would have had a good laugh if the BSA wasn't serious about it. Personally, I would like to see that book burned and a new one written that would be closer to the truth.

10-09-2001, 06:48 PM	#4 (permalink)
santeeswapper Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: Lumberton, NC Posts: 1	I read the article and found it be be old fashioned race baiting. Does anyone in their hearts believe that the Cub Scouts should be compared to the Hitler Youth? The brainwashing that takes place in the Taliban religous schools and arming 10 year olds with machine guns --- now that you can compare to the Hitler Youth. Teaching an 8 year old boy to "Do Your Best" and how to be a good citizen of a freedom loving country is not in the same time zone as what the article seems to point out. The author seems to want to pit "Red and Black" people against Jews and Christians. Hopefully, everyone who reads it is intelligent enough to see through the smoke screen and read it for the hate mongering that is the Nation of Islam.

10-09-2001, 07:26 PM	#5 (permalink)
BrownHornet Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: under a rock Posts: 59	Hmm, What an idiot. I would not be surprised if this is not more homosexual propoganda guised as "Nation of Islam" or whatever. I would also like to add that this organization does have a sect that teaches and participates in some limited aspects of American Indian Culture. Some teachers are a little out of touch and some are Native themselves. Is it going to stop? I doubt it. Do I wish it would? To some extent. I hope that all you folks realize that this organization has millions of members nationwide. The Cub Scouting program is the largest division of the Boy Scouts. Associating the values of this organization with Hitler Youth, Gimme a break. The core values of this organization is Citezenship, personal fitness, and character. I think that we all, as americans, have come togehter like no other time that most of us can remember. Lets not let articlals such as this one do what the media has already been doing a good job of, mind control. Brown hornet

10-09-2001, 08:43 PM	#6 (permalink)
yishdioh Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Feb 2001 Location: UT Posts: 15	My sons have been Cub Scouts and Boy Scouts and I have been a Cub Scout leader. We found much of the material somewhat offense concerning Native Americans as well. They have been updating their books and have made some good changes along the way. Since we were involved, we helped others to be more respectful about all cultures. There was a tendency to be joke around rather than really learn about other cultures and we put a stop to the racist jokes being done. I was impressed by all the people who turned their act around when they realized it was hurting people. The only area we had no success with was the Boy Scout's Order of the Arrow. My children cried when they heard that Hollywood drum beat and saw the way those boys were dancing. My sons are grass dancers and couldn't comprehend what was being done on stage that was being called grass dance. Lies were being told and the audience was so attentive, taking it all in as the truth. We have offered to teach them drumming and dancing, but they don't want to talk to us. They claim to be keeping up the traditions as they learned them. I know of a good number of scouts who are Native Americans who could do performances and teach people, but we get rejecting in favor of Boy Scout groups that tour nationally and internationally misrepresenting the dances and the culture. I am not against Scouting. They are a very good organization with admirable programs to teach boys many skills and ethics. I just wish they would change their program to eliminate trying to be like Native Americans. Learning about other cultures is valuable, but should be handled carefully.

10-09-2001, 08:54 PM	#7 (permalink)
spiritwoman Guest Posts: n/a	Homosexual propaganda? Please explain. I went to the link and read it. Maybe we didn't read the same page? Speaking of stereotypes you represented a good one yourself. 'Homosexual propaganda'. If you weren't joking that smacks of homophobia. I hope I was reading your message wrong. Homosexuals are living, breathing people, too. The BSA is not a recruiting office for homosexuals, any more than the Catholic or Episcopal churches are because there have been cases of priests molesting young altar boys.

10-09-2001, 10:40 PM	#9 (permalink)
BrownHornet Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: under a rock Posts: 59	You are very correct, we are not a recruiting ground for Homosexuals. I was trying to say that this sounded like another attempt byt he gay community to send a negative message about the Boy Scouts. they have become quite clever with there means. This is happening quite regularly these days since our great Supreme Court gave us the power to exclude them from our programs. Yishdio, you should take your complaint to the local scout executive of the council you paricipate in. He is the chief executive officer of that particular council. I am sure that if what you say is true, then he will take corrective steps to ensure that the OA either listens to the local natives or refrain form dances. Brown Hornet

10-10-2001, 10:51 AM	#12 (permalink)
BrownHornet Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: under a rock Posts: 59	This site is truly disturbing. In the late 1980's the BSA took measures to locate and remove homosexuals and pedophiles from its program. The national organization maintains a database of names who are ineligable to join the Boy Scouts based on their sexual preferences. When an adult leader joins the organization their name is cross referenced with this database and if it is remotely close, the local organization receives notice to investigate. Much of the BSA training deals with child abuse. It has become a nationwide issue recently when the Supreme Court held that we were a private organization able to set criteria for our membership. Now, we have every gay and homosexual organization fireing everything they can at our national and local oraganization. I also think that this relation with Indian ceremonies and the Boy Scouts is blown totally out of proportion. If you read this you would think that the ceremonies and dancing was an integral part of the program when in fact it is not. It probably makes up less than 1% of the program. In that 1% there are a few that have learned form natives and a large percentage that just doesnt know any better. I say educate those that you can and make us all better people. For those that you cant deal with, contact their local council and express your concerns. This is the only way to fix it, not just griping about it on a board. Brown Hornet

10-10-2001, 03:09 PM	#14 (permalink)
BrownHornet Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: under a rock Posts: 59	Im sure you are going to specifly what you find to be disturbing. I have opinions just like everyone else on this board. I will continue to express them. Brown Hornet

10-10-2001, 03:30 PM	#15 (permalink)
ecaron Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: calgary, alberta Posts: 7	you would like me to specify? i'm quite bothered by your comments on homosexuals, and the apparent connection to pedophilia. fine to have your own opinion, but is it informed?

10-10-2001, 08:00 PM	#16 (permalink)
Beth Beth Join Date: Feb 2000 Location: over the rainbow Posts: 199	Have had dealings at the level BrownHornet speaks of. Their minds need to washed out with lye soap several times over. They are prudish, narrow minded prigs. They try to ruins peoples reputations on what they assume or surmise about a situation. Don't bother to ask the people involved just condemn on what they assume. BH you have always known that I don't like the organization and this is a big park of it. Not what they are trying to teach but the attitude of the people doing it.

10-11-2001, 01:12 AM	#18 (permalink)
itokasniye Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Sep 2000 Posts: 80	Yeah maybe 1% of PROGRAM. It is mostly used on a troop or council level as something other than program. Ever been to a summercamp where they didnt do SOMETHING indian or name something indian? I havent. I gave up on scouting 5 years ago when they sold our sumer camp just so they would have the most money when the councils merged. Council, region and national dont care about kids. they just care about saving their own asses and making money while doing it. We had a scoutmaster die from a heartattack at our camp one year. It just so happened that the Council exec was in camp at the time (the second time in 10 years). He stood there the whole time watching our staff members do CPR for an hour till the ambulence got there. The ambulence was just out of the camp exit and there he was with the insurance forms. BSA is all MONEY. Their are few volunteer leaders that actual care. Most of them are only there cause their son is a scout. Soon as the kid gets eagle he is gone. Sad but true. __________________ The brighter the light, the deeper the shadow.

10-11-2001, 01:38 AM	#19 (permalink)
NIENIE Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Oct 2000 Posts: 5	When I was in college I had a communications class where one girl came dressed in her Girl Scout "Indian" dress for one of her presentations. It was brown fringed cotton with wooden beads strung on the fringe. It also had a bunch of patches on it. Merit badges? I'm not sure I didn't take in much of what she was saying. I just sat there, completely dumbfounded, and sickened. I was the only Indian in the class, pretty much the whole university. And no, I would not have felt any better if her little outfit was constructed correctly. I was pretty pissed off. I would never have my kids join one of these organizations.