lots of questions

markcase · 04-07-2008, 08:36 PM

Up front, I want to say thank you for allowing me to join this board and ask questions. I have a lot of them and don't know where to go to get the answers.

1st of many questions: turtles shells. We have seen pictures of turtle rattles. Do men or women dance with them? We have seen pictures of turtle shells that can be used for ponytails. Are those for women or men? Thank you for the education.

powwowbum49 · 04-07-2008, 11:55 PM

I have never seen anyone using turtle shells in either form you mentioned at any powwow. The questions you ask would be tribal specific if it even apply to anyone and their tribe willing to answer. This is the craft forum of this board and thus has threads that are about making things more than appropriateness of use for an item. I am not sure you are going to get an answer to this question. You might try reposting it in NATIVE ISSUES OR POWWOW TALK.

BeadMan · 04-08-2008, 12:56 AM

While some species of turtle exists over almost all of native north america, there is very little use of their shells in clothing, and much less in contemporary powwow outfits. The best thing I can think of off hand are women's stop dance shell shakers (worn around the lower legs). These would be among all the Southeastern tribes (Cherokee, Creek, Choctaw, Delaware and many many others)

annie_griffin · 04-08-2008, 10:28 AM

It seems I heard some people use empty evaporated milk cans
instead of turtle shells now. Not sure what goes on the inside maybe beans or rice. You could put beans and rice and then in case of emergency you'd have dinner on hand. Just a thought.
The best use for a turtle I've seen is to leave it swimming in the pond.

sincerely,
annie

**ac_miss** · 04-08-2008, 11:24 AM

well, I've seen some women who claim to be cherokee use the turtle shell as a purse. Serious. I've also seen a couple of women in louisiana use them as purses, too.

I dunno......

*Brown Eyed Gurl* · 04-08-2008, 12:47 PM

how come u edited ur thread/post? maybe ill ask that in the 'Questions Only' thread eh? lol

Wyldwolf52 · 04-08-2008, 01:04 PM

What I learned from a Kurok craftperson was to drill holes along the sides of the shell. Sting the leather through holes for a fringe. Tie the leather into a knot up at the edge of the turtle Then insert a leather pouch filled with tabacco and then hang it on the wall. I hang mine over my alter.

**Josiah** · 04-08-2008, 01:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by powwowbum49

I have never seen anyone using turtle shells in either form you mentioned at any powwow. The questions you ask would be tribal specific if it even apply to anyone and their tribe willing to answer. This is the craft forum of this board and thus has threads that are about making things more than appropriateness of use for an item. I am not sure you are going to get an answer to this question. You might try reposting it in NATIVE ISSUES OR POWWOW TALK.

In a Powwow setting I have never seen Turtle shells used except by someone reinventing something

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeadMan

The best thing I can think of off hand are women's stop dance shell shakers (worn around the lower legs). These would be among all the Southeastern tribes (Cherokee, Creek, Choctaw, Delaware and many many others)

This is true, but now days you see more tin cans than shells when they stomp dance. My grandma had shells up and down her legs but that was long ago and she past away in 1969

Quote:

Originally Posted by annie_griffin

It seems I heard some people use empty evaporated milk cans instead of turtle shells now.

Yep

Quote:

Originally Posted by ac_miss

well, I've seen some women who claim to be cherokee use the turtle shell as a purse. Serious. I've also seen a couple of women in louisiana use them as purses, too.

I dunno......

I have seen these socalled "Cherokee women" with these Turtle purses
Monkey see Monkey Do
Old style was to use a basket weaving for a purse
Not a Turtle shell

LOL

annie_griffin · 04-08-2008, 01:46 PM

Why are people saying so called Cherokee Women?
Not that it is any of my business as usual.
It seems like people like to dis the Cherokee all the time.

-annie

**Mr Oakley** · 04-08-2008, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by annie_griffin

Why are people saying so called Cherokee Women?
Not that it is any of my business as usual.
It seems like people like to dis the Cherokee all the time.

-annie

Are you "Cherkoee" ..lol. Im just kidding. Oh yeah...check out my powwow videos...I don't see one person with a turtle shell purse :)

annie_griffin · 04-08-2008, 05:14 PM

Yeah my great grandmother was one of those Cherokee Princesses
who worked all day in the fields of North Carolina and then got beat by her husband. Funny Business being a Cherokee princess.

-annie

annie_griffin · 04-08-2008, 05:46 PM

Sorry didn't mean to sound so bitter. I was always told I was 1/16 Cherokee. For what it is worth I took it to heart. The princess part of course is a joke the other stuff I am afraid is all too true.
Knowing what my grandmothers went through makes me hold on to that belief with a kind of pride no one can take away.
I'll be holding on to it when I die which I hope is none too soon.
So yeah I am Cherokee. I might not have the papers but I have the blood to prove it.

-annie

**FluteMaker** · 04-08-2008, 06:11 PM

turtle shell rattles are actually quite common, but ive never seen anyone use one for a pony tail holder

this one is supposedly from the late 1800's
Turtle Shell Dance Rattle, Iroquois Nation, late 19th century, at the National Music Museum

**Josiah** · 04-08-2008, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by annie_griffin

Why are people saying so called Cherokee Women?
Not that it is any of my business as usual.
It seems like people like to dis the Cherokee all the time.
-annie

Actually I said so-called because they call them selfs this but know nothing of our customs,Language,traditions,nothing.
I say this because I am Cherokee and a member of our great Nation.
I come from Tahlequah, Oklahoma and when I meet these so-called Cherokee woman it certainly is not on CourtHouse Square or at a StompDance somewhere in the hollows

But yet they carry these things and tell there friends and anyone that will listen that they know these things and pretty soon its gospel
And another legend is born
Just like the Cherokee Princess Myth
or all the others I have ever Heard

No I dont walk up to them and tell them off
It is not our way
I just watch and feel a little sadden...

04-07-2008, 08:36 PM	#1 (permalink)
markcase Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: North Carolina Posts: 9	lots of questions Up front, I want to say thank you for allowing me to join this board and ask questions. I have a lot of them and don't know where to go to get the answers. 1st of many questions: turtles shells. We have seen pictures of turtle rattles. Do men or women dance with them? We have seen pictures of turtle shells that can be used for ponytails. Are those for women or men? Thank you for the education. Last edited by markcase; 04-07-2008 at 09:54 PM.

04-07-2008, 11:55 PM	#2 (permalink)
powwowbum49 Arena Director Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: midwest, USA Posts: 810	I have never seen anyone using turtle shells in either form you mentioned at any powwow. The questions you ask would be tribal specific if it even apply to anyone and their tribe willing to answer. This is the craft forum of this board and thus has threads that are about making things more than appropriateness of use for an item. I am not sure you are going to get an answer to this question. You might try reposting it in NATIVE ISSUES OR POWWOW TALK. __________________ PB49 "Every child is an artist. The problem is how to remain an artist once we grow up." Pablo Picasso My comments are based on what I have been taught and my experiences over the years I have been around the circle. They should in no way be taken as gospel truths and are merely my opinions or attempts at passing on what I have learned while still learning more.

04-08-2008, 10:28 AM	#4 (permalink)
annie_griffin Junior Dancer Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: new jersey Posts: 238	got milk cans? It seems I heard some people use empty evaporated milk cans instead of turtle shells now. Not sure what goes on the inside maybe beans or rice. You could put beans and rice and then in case of emergency you'd have dinner on hand. Just a thought. The best use for a turtle I've seen is to leave it swimming in the pond. sincerely, annie

04-08-2008, 11:24 AM	#5 (permalink)
ac_miss Beading Mad Woman Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Texas Posts: 2,975 Blog Entries: 3	well, I've seen some women who claim to be cherokee use the turtle shell as a purse. Serious. I've also seen a couple of women in louisiana use them as purses, too. I dunno...... __________________ Bead All You Can Bead

04-08-2008, 12:47 PM	#6 (permalink)
Brown Eyed Gurl ~Brown Sugar~ Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Go Canucks! Posts: 62,411 Blog Entries: 1	how come u edited ur thread/post? maybe ill ask that in the 'Questions Only' thread eh? lol __________________ ...GoT GreaSe?... www.Grease.It.Ayye.com RezinInc Kalilsha

04-08-2008, 12:56 AM	#3 (permalink)
BeadMan Beadworker Join Date: Feb 2000 Location: Northeast Iowa Posts: 410	While some species of turtle exists over almost all of native north america, there is very little use of their shells in clothing, and much less in contemporary powwow outfits. The best thing I can think of off hand are women's stop dance shell shakers (worn around the lower legs). These would be among all the Southeastern tribes (Cherokee, Creek, Choctaw, Delaware and many many others)

04-08-2008, 01:04 PM	#7 (permalink)
Wyldwolf52 Springdeer Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: Grants Pass, Oregon Posts: 57	What I learned from a Kurok craftperson was to drill holes along the sides of the shell. Sting the leather through holes for a fringe. Tie the leather into a knot up at the edge of the turtle Then insert a leather pouch filled with tabacco and then hang it on the wall. I hang mine over my alter.

04-08-2008, 01:46 PM	#9 (permalink)
annie_griffin Junior Dancer Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: new jersey Posts: 238	? Why are people saying so called Cherokee Women? Not that it is any of my business as usual. It seems like people like to dis the Cherokee all the time. -annie

04-08-2008, 05:14 PM	#11 (permalink)
annie_griffin Junior Dancer Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: new jersey Posts: 238	Funny business being a Cherokee princess Yeah my great grandmother was one of those Cherokee Princesses who worked all day in the fields of North Carolina and then got beat by her husband. Funny Business being a Cherokee princess. -annie

04-08-2008, 05:46 PM	#12 (permalink)
annie_griffin Junior Dancer Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: new jersey Posts: 238	Cherokee Sorry didn't mean to sound so bitter. I was always told I was 1/16 Cherokee. For what it is worth I took it to heart. The princess part of course is a joke the other stuff I am afraid is all too true. Knowing what my grandmothers went through makes me hold on to that belief with a kind of pride no one can take away. I'll be holding on to it when I die which I hope is none too soon. So yeah I am Cherokee. I might not have the papers but I have the blood to prove it. -annie

04-08-2008, 06:11 PM	#13 (permalink)
FluteMaker PowWows.com Addicts Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: somewhere between chicago and DC, what day is it again? Posts: 2,458	turtle shell rattles are actually quite common, but ive never seen anyone use one for a pony tail holder this one is supposedly from the late 1800's Turtle Shell Dance Rattle, Iroquois Nation, late 19th century, at the National Music Museum __________________ No bomb is smart enough to not kill the innocent. Last edited by FluteMaker; 04-08-2008 at 06:18 PM.