03-01-2004, 06:46 PM
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#2 (permalink) |
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Teen Dancer
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 424
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It is hard to tell a wild A wild turkey center plume from an eagle.
Should you use it is another questions. If they use fake plumes already I don't see what difference it makes. I do not let my daughters wear anything fake. but thats just me.
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03-02-2004, 04:56 AM
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#3 (permalink) |
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Space Cowboy
 
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Alaska
Posts: 9,621
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I don't really have an opinion on this other than.. I don't trust my daughter at this age to wear the real thing so I would probably use turkey to teach her how to take care of the real thing....
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Don't worry that it's not good enough for anyone else to hear... just sing, sing a song. 
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03-03-2004, 02:56 PM
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#4 (permalink) |
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N8tiffUmatillaMAMA
Join Date: Feb 2004
Location: Interior Alaska
Posts: 2,737
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My daughter just received her first real eagle plume from an elder. I prefer using eagle feathers; but sometimes it's impractical for our smaller dancers, and besides natural turkey, etc. are also indigenous to North American anyhow.
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03-03-2004, 03:04 PM
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#5 (permalink) |
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Teen Dancer
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 424
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There is another thread with the history of the plume.
I agree little ones probably are not ready for that plume. Maybe I am just out of touch but the more I read on this site the more I see people just doing anyhting to by get by. No one hardly has feathers. Maybe all this has just degenerated into a costume...anything to LOOK real.. These articles were chosen for a reason...each one has a purpose. Eagle feathers have different ways than other feathers.
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03-03-2004, 05:11 PM
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#6 (permalink) |
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Space Cowboy
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Alaska
Posts: 9,621
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Well also among some tribes, the turkey was held in as high of regard as the eagle...not exactly a sacred bird, but held in as high a regard sometimes. The turkey is a brave bird and it's call was mimicked also in war to intimidate the enemy.
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Don't worry that it's not good enough for anyone else to hear... just sing, sing a song.
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03-03-2004, 07:46 PM
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#7 (permalink) |
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Teen Dancer
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 424
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blackbear, you are right.
Shawnees use that call and wore turkey beard roaches..and some tribes clean up around the sweat with turkey wings etc, . I have a lot of relations who have turkey clan names. they will explain right off the two birds are not interchangable. Seneca's, who live in Oklahoma revere Turkey but the calumets still have eagle feathers, not turkey feathers. Roach feathers were always eagles...I may yet be proved wrong,,,that's OK, I am learning, but as yet I have seen in no evidence in photo or ethnography or any tradition otherwise. I am not that versed on northeastern traditions. I have looked at a dozens of museum collections and hundreds of photos. So i am willing to accept turkey as fans and other adornments. but some one needs to show me where they are interchangable. And in the plains tradition, where powow came from, its a Eagle plume in a girls hair. It's like that otter on my straight dance clothes. it is not just any piece of fur it has to be otter fur.
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My bark is worse than my bite Last edited by storm; 03-03-2004 at 07:55 PM. |
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03-04-2004, 04:00 AM
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#8 (permalink) |
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Space Cowboy
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Alaska
Posts: 9,621
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calumets.. are you talking gustowehs possibly? The iroquois headdress is called a gustoweh and the feathers are usually a mix. They use both eagle and turkey and sometimes pheasant.. the bunches of what look like curled feathers are split turkey and eagle feathers but five of the six nations have the tail or wing feathers to denote which nation you belong to.. such as the seneca have one upright eagle feather in the center while the mohawk have three upright and the tuscarora have none. The tuscarora can have an eagle feather on the gustoweh but it hangs down the back or off the side...never upright.
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Don't worry that it's not good enough for anyone else to hear... just sing, sing a song.
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03-04-2004, 04:02 AM
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#9 (permalink) |
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Space Cowboy
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Alaska
Posts: 9,621
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Storm.. did you also know that the shawnee and the tuscarora during the tuscarora migration had adopted members of each nation? Some of our beaver clan members are decendants of two shawnee girls that were adopted when found alone after their parents had been killed.
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Don't worry that it's not good enough for anyone else to hear... just sing, sing a song.
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03-04-2004, 10:19 AM
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#10 (permalink) |
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Teen Dancer
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 424
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Blackbear, Thanks for the information, My Shawnee folks got around ? I have met realtions at Walpole Island in Canada, Texas all over.
I know a little about the gustoweh. Eagle dance or Pipe dance wands are almost the same as "Wa Wan " wands, sometimes confused with calumets. I have danced the pipe dance with the Senecas, and held those wands.
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03-04-2004, 03:38 PM
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#12 (permalink) |
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Teen Dancer
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Oklahoma
Posts: 424
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blackbear...
I know people are using what they can get. It is expensive and difficult to obtain many materials. But I just wish they Knew why they are supposed to use certain items...Powow traditions reflect my religious values. And as diverse groups all over the country adopt powow they often have little or no history or understanding of where these traditions come from. It frustrates me to no end. I ask myself ,Why are they doing that? In my grandpas day everything was rules and traditions. In a important ceremony they had spent a lot of money and food and people a traveled from all over by wagon and train to get to the home place. The first day, someone dropped the pipe. it was all over. Time to go home... Rules, rituals, whatever you want to call it. There was no mercy. If you screwed up BAD things would happen! Those old men expected everything to go just right. If they saw half the dances today they would scream. Maybe I shoudn't say this here, but that plume is important medicine. protection..I would never let may daughters go out in that arena without them. But you have to 'believe' in these things.. not just think they are" KEWL"
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03-05-2004, 05:45 PM
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#13 (permalink) |
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Space Cowboy
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Alaska
Posts: 9,621
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I agree with you. I did'nt grow up in powwows though.. in fact I've only been dancing bout 5-6 years now.. but my hubby grew up with IICOT so I learn from him and from others that are traditional powwowers.
The traditions and customs might not be my own, I might not believe in them and I might even disagree with some, but that does'nt matter to me.. if it is tradition I adhere to it to the best of my knowledge and then I try to find out why these things are the way they are. I'm never afraid to ask questions.. that's the best way to learn eh?
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Don't worry that it's not good enough for anyone else to hear... just sing, sing a song.
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03-05-2004, 05:47 PM
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#14 (permalink) |
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Space Cowboy
Join Date: Nov 2000
Location: Alaska
Posts: 9,621
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oh and my daughter does not wear a plume.. she is paying her way, and learning. It's not something our(she is enrolled as tuscarora with me) people do but it's her father's tradition and when she's ready, then she will be plumed.
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Don't worry that it's not good enough for anyone else to hear... just sing, sing a song.
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