BUCKSKIN CONTESTING! - Page 3

buckskinlady · 11-12-2001, 04:48 PM

I know this is an old topic, but I waited a long time to respond and you know what, I changed my point of view, or rather listening to you all has changed my point of view.
I was going to (actually threatened to ) lash out at Kiwehnzii about his comments, but mainly because he seemed like he was directing his comments to Southern dancers and saying that they all want to pick their own. Of course with people from all areas expressing their own opinions about lack of fairness and Pow-Wow politics involved, we all can see that it goes on everywhere and it is such a pity. I don't know if we can change it and I feel like when I was a teenager again and I wondered why everybody of all races couldn't get along and why we couldn't have peace forever. Maybe it is too idealistic to think that everyone should put aside their biases and judge fairly without regard to the flash and relatives and partying buds and who helped who or who might help who if they won. Or even as bad as someone splitting prize money with the judge if they won!! Yes, I heard that one several times!!
I was going to say that I thought that only people who had contested a while in that caregory and had some expertise in that dance should judge others in the same dance. Like former Championship Men's Fancy should only judge Junior or Teen Fancy. Or maybe only elders who had danced in that Category should judge. Because really, some people really don't know exactly what to look for in the contestants. Yeah, you can grow up in the arena, but if you've danced Southern Traditonal Buckskin your whole life and are asked to judge Women's Jingle....do you really know all the intracacies of the dance. Do you know exactly where the hands should be on a certain beat, do you know exactly how the fan should be held...do you know how to appreciate an old style traditional Jingle dancer without her fan? And I really don't think we should be judging the opposite sex.
BUT, I guess I really know that strictly strangers should be judging for fairness. I only hope we are not going to be rewarding poor dancers for the sake of not being biased.
I do agree whole-heartedly with Pawnee Scout that we should not be forgetting the core of Women's Cloth and Buckskin...that we should be looking for the truly elegant, the truly graceful, the footwork and how they carry their body, their shawl, their fan and if they are one with the drum and not what knock-out beadwork someone did for them (or they themselves).
I know I make some real "glitter-bug" dresses, but I always say to the best dancers that they are so graceful..they will win if they wore a flour sack. Ah-ho!

Takin' Numbers · 11-12-2001, 05:41 PM

Good post, Cara, and worth the wait!! :D Thanks for your thoughts...and yes dancers (in all categories) should be placed for the reasons you mentioned, absolutely!!

I also definitely agree with your comments on men and women judging each other. When tabulating, I always ty to keep the women and men judging with their own respective categories if at all possible. It's a tough job to try to pick people who are "right for the job." I always hope that people will have the integrity to let me know if they are related or biased, or if they don't feel qualified to judge a particular category.

Contesting is fun and rewarding...but speaking as a dancer now...I do it for the love and not the money. I do my own beadwork and make my own outfits. I am proud of what I accomplish...and how I look. That should be all that matters, whether you do you own stuff, have friends or family make it...or are lucky enough to get one of Cara's beautiful dresses!! :D Just feel good about yourself!!

And...I love the glitter...and just know, it's making it's way "North." In fact, I am planning on using some for my new outfit.

So Cara, do you have a good source for rhinestones by any chance?? I understand the metal strung are better than the plastic? Can you give some pointers and observations about using? I would appeciate it!!!

THANKSSSSS!!!

TN

**Kiwehnzii** · 11-13-2001, 12:52 AM

I thought this topic would never be revived. It is good to talk about stuff like this though.

I too agree that the judges should know the styles of dance being judged. Former dancers, current dancers, etc.
We must be realistic tho'. Sometimes these northern style dances are offered in the south or vice versa. AD's or HJ's cannot always find these expert judges that are not related.
So... we have to do the best that we can.
Many times the committees like to give an honorarium to the people who helped with the judging. The HJ's or AD's have to again try to keep the amount of judges to a minimum so that the committee doesn't accumulate a great cost.
It's not an easy task - trying to juggle the judges you have and when you have two rounds of competition - not duplicate the judges for the second round.
Everyone cannot be pleased with your selection of judges but that's the way it goes.
I too am a dancer but I never, ever complain about the judges. I know the tough job that has to be done by the AD's & HJ's. We're the ones who get the flack, get blamed for someone not placing and still have to smile and then have to do it again at another powwow down the road cuz nobody wants to do it.
I know a few that tried but only lasted one powwow because they couldn't take the heat.
Why do I do it? Honor. I feel very honored that people entrust me with running a fair and honest competition (some - year after year) I average 7-8 powwows per year and I've been doing it for 20 years. I'm turning down some offers now. I'm getting quite content to just dance and visit and just hang out. I figured I've earned it.
Ahow.

Mato Winyan · 11-13-2001, 03:54 AM

Just read over all of the posts, so I have a few comments.
About the black buckskin... I have never seen that I did see purple at Parson's Trading Post black powder/rendevous/medieval/powwow(???) type thing. Weird. She was also honored as having a nameing ceremony dang- blang right there in the middle of the arena. They went into how she went on vision quest and blah,blah,blah....Some "Keeper of the Sacred Animals Wolf Woman" type name. Wouldn't have struck me so weird but it was a traditional elder that did the ceremony, not a plastic medicine man. Weird.:Shocked :Scared :Eyepopper :Help
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
This year at St. Francis there was this little gal competeing in buckskin and she also judged. My daughter competed and understepped on the song and immediately removed herself from competition. At the time this gal laughed at my daughter. I was po'd. My daughter didn't care in the least and said it was on her. Well anyway........ they had another round of competition and this little gal dropped part of her regalia and picked it up, went and lined up and eventually won first place.

buckskinlady · 11-13-2001, 10:39 AM

Mato,
That story about the girl that judged and laughed and then was dishonest in her own contest is just shameful!!
But good for your daughter!!!! Honesty, integrity and good sportsmanship are worth far more than any prize money!! And of course people notice these things...that other girl will not get away with that stuff somewhere down the road.
And Kiwehnzii, I respect your opinions as a seasoned judge. But I know how those people feel who "can't take the heat" and don't want to judge anymore. Every August as part of our Indian Exposition (we just call it the Fair) we put on a Beautiful Indian Baby Contest and they all have to be in regalia. It started out small, but now it is big and we still run it independently with no money from the Fair Board and we raise all our own funds and solicit all our own prizes. We make sure all the kids get something good and we have door prizes, but we definitely have winners and trophies and better prizes for the winners and they get in the newspaper and the Parade.
After judging that for a few years and sustaining the wrath of Mothers and Grandmothers of the losers, I absolutely refuse to judge! I would excuse myself if I was related to any kids or if I had made their outfits, but losers always gossiped around that it was rigged. I am the Secretary now on the Beautiful Indian Baby "Board of Directors" and I tabulate the winners and lay the books open right on the table for anyone to protest!
We even had a few totally unrelated people (White people) judge
some contests and everyone complained that they didn't know what to look for in the regalia or tribal dress.
Oh well! You can't please everybody.
Ah-ho!

**Kiwehnzii** · 11-13-2001, 03:20 PM

I too use the open book policy. Not many people want to see it tho'.
Many years ago this guy who wasn't really an ace dancer asked and I showed him. Not one judge selected him. He was so embarressed. I felt bad for him. Sometimes it's better not to know.:)

I'll not post anymore on this topic.

Takin' Numbers · 11-13-2001, 04:38 PM

I use the open book policy when tabulating...and encourage any dancer who protests the contest to have a look. Would rather them see their scores (and my tabulation) than to debate how or if they placed. Makes it easier for me, and the facts are the facts...no funny stuff involved.

However, recently it was suggested to me by a veteran AD friend of mine it might be best to not reveal the judge names....only the score sheets. He said he has found that too many times people hold grudges against judges that can come back to haunt them or a member of their family at some other contest somewhere down the road.

Do you all think judge's identity should be kept anonymous?

TN

**Kiwehnzii** · 11-13-2001, 05:27 PM

I said I wouldn't post again but here I am.

In answer to anonymity - definitely YES.

Revealing that would cause hard feelings.:(

buckskinlady · 11-14-2001, 11:02 AM

Yeah, I agree...no judges names attached to the scores...that would be asking for trouble!

Sahnish · 11-14-2001, 11:53 AM

Back in the day, judges went out and picked someone so everyone saw who they picked, not just if someone went up and looked at ballots. Up here, when a speical is held, the same thing happens, the judges go out and hand pick their winner, in front of everyone. If you are talking about "fair judging" than what would be the big deal about putting your name on your vote. I mean if I don't vote for a big dog because he missed the song, he knows that as well as I do and I don't think he would be suprised to know he didn't get my vote. Along those same lines, I have been reading about judges disqualifying themselves when relatives or friends etc are dancing. While I agree with this practice one judges vote isn't going to win you a contest. I mean just becuase you show up doesn't mean you are going to win. There are way to many variables, who sings your songs, types of songs, number checks, grand entry points, whose in your group, judges, committee. Anyone that has been going to pow wows for awhile has seen lots of suspicous contest results, but that isn't because they had a buddy judging, that stuff is done at the commitee level.

oneida11 · 05-08-2003, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by 1dancing white wolf
I just want to add my 2 cents worth here. I had 2 new dresses made for this year and both of them are very simple southern buckskins. The yokes are beaded with my own personal design-one rosette in the center and two on the sides a little smaller than the center one. Extra long fringe on the sleeves/cape. I have done away with the glittery stuff for a simpler look. This weekend I didn't wear a belt, and found that I liked that look (not to mention the comfort level)better. I have modified my dance style a little also to fit the new longer fringe-more swing and sway as opposed to the old regalia which did not have the extra long fringe. Overall I like the new look and style better than my old one. I recieved many compliments not only on my dresses but on the dancing as well. I do not contest, so I cannot comment on that aspect. However, I did see a lot of large applique pieces this weekend, so I can agree that this may be a new fashion trend as well. I am also carrying a new fan that is smaller than my old crow wing fan and I noticed that many of the women this weekend were using the much larger wing fans-goose, swan, turkey. This could be owing to the heat though.
While we are on this subject, I'd like to comment on something else I noticed this weekend-one of my new dresses is light cream color, but I saw a lot of women(granted I had never seen any of these people before in my area) wearing black buckskin. I found it kinda vulgar. Even the best made dress is sort of ruined when it is black. Doesn't seem very traditional to me. Anyone else seeing this, or is it just here in VA?

Hello I'm a Southern Buckskin Dancer and I agree with all the glitter put into regalia these days but think about it, we use what is available just as done in the past....My dresses represent me I am currently working on a dress which is not traditional at all more contemperary in design but it represents my life and personality I don't worry about what others think, I put alot of work in my beading and it is something I am proud of. My dancing is done from the heart just like everything I put into my regalia, I have cut beads in this new dress for something different but it wasn't done for the flash only because thats the vision I had when I designed the dress. Don't get me wrong I love traditional but it never bothered me to see someone in extravagant dresses because the dress doesn't truly do anything if you can't dance in it. :p oneida11

rbees · 05-14-2003, 11:09 AM

I'm an elder now and when I am asked to be a judge I try to do my best to not just go by the outfits.
Some of the people have magnificent outfits and I don't mean this to be mean. ~ but just can not dance at all. Their either too stiff or just way off beat. And it is sad to see that they win only based on their outfits.
I look for grace, stamina and if I can see that they are truly "in to" the dance. I hope that makes sense.
Well I'm just a Grandmother what do I know. Blessings to you all. :)

oneida11 · 05-14-2003, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rbees
I'm an elder now and when I am asked to be a judge I try to do my best to not just go by the outfits.
Some of the people have magnificent outfits and I don't mean this to be mean. ~ but just can not dance at all. Their either too stiff or just way off beat. And it is sad to see that they win only based on their outfits.
I look for grace, stamina and if I can see that they are truly "in to" the dance. I hope that makes sense.
Well I'm just a Grandmother what do I know. Blessings to you all. :)

oneida11 · 05-14-2003, 04:15 PM

Quote:

Originally posted by rbees
I'm an elder now and when I am asked to be a judge I try to do my best to not just go by the outfits.
Some of the people have magnificent outfits and I don't mean this to be mean. ~ but just can not dance at all. Their either too stiff or just way off beat. And it is sad to see that they win only based on their outfits.
I look for grace, stamina and if I can see that they are truly "in to" the dance. I hope that makes sense.
Well I'm just a Grandmother what do I know. Blessings to you all. :)

I am happy to hear that!!!not many people asked to judge truly look for the dancing!! I put alot into my dancing regardless how I place I am happy if only I did my best the money isn't what matters to me, but how I feel after dancing which is always a good feeling, and you being a grandmother!!:) and being an Elder, you know alot more than me!!! I appreciate anything I learn from my Elders for it was an Elder that taught me how to dance!!!:p Thank you for your insight and honesty!! I hope one day more people will learn to judge in the right way!!!Thank you again!!
oneida11

N8tive Dreamz · 05-14-2003, 05:01 PM

I was wondering....during the Honor Beats is it okay as a Southern Dancer to raise their fan?

oneida11 · 05-15-2003, 03:29 PM

Hi!!
I was always told that the only ones that raise their fans is the Northern Buckskin dancers I don't raise my fan and I haven't seen Southern Buckskin raise their fans so I wouldn't raise it:p hope that helps:Chatter
oneida11

11-14-2001, 11:53 AM	#50 (permalink)
Sahnish Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: Apr 2000 Location: North Dakota Posts: 67	Back in the day, judges went out and picked someone so everyone saw who they picked, not just if someone went up and looked at ballots. Up here, when a speical is held, the same thing happens, the judges go out and hand pick their winner, in front of everyone. If you are talking about "fair judging" than what would be the big deal about putting your name on your vote. I mean if I don't vote for a big dog because he missed the song, he knows that as well as I do and I don't think he would be suprised to know he didn't get my vote. Along those same lines, I have been reading about judges disqualifying themselves when relatives or friends etc are dancing. While I agree with this practice one judges vote isn't going to win you a contest. I mean just becuase you show up doesn't mean you are going to win. There are way to many variables, who sings your songs, types of songs, number checks, grand entry points, whose in your group, judges, committee. Anyone that has been going to pow wows for awhile has seen lots of suspicous contest results, but that isn't because they had a buddy judging, that stuff is done at the commitee level. __________________ Sahnish "There is nothing more dangerous than ignorance in action."

05-14-2003, 05:01 PM	#55 (permalink)
N8tive Dreamz Junior Dancer Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: AZ Posts: 115	..Fan.. I was wondering....during the Honor Beats is it okay as a Southern Dancer to raise their fan? __________________ Just me....

05-15-2003, 03:29 PM	#56 (permalink)
oneida11 Pow Wow Visitor Join Date: May 2003 Location: memphis, tennessee Posts: 5	buckskin contesting Hi!! I was always told that the only ones that raise their fans is the Northern Buckskin dancers I don't raise my fan and I haven't seen Southern Buckskin raise their fans so I wouldn't raise it:p hope that helps:Chatter oneida11

11-12-2001, 04:48 PM	#41 (permalink)
buckskinlady Southern Buckskin Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Oklahoma and on the pow-wow trail Posts: 115	I know this is an old topic, but I waited a long time to respond and you know what, I changed my point of view, or rather listening to you all has changed my point of view. I was going to (actually threatened to ) lash out at Kiwehnzii about his comments, but mainly because he seemed like he was directing his comments to Southern dancers and saying that they all want to pick their own. Of course with people from all areas expressing their own opinions about lack of fairness and Pow-Wow politics involved, we all can see that it goes on everywhere and it is such a pity. I don't know if we can change it and I feel like when I was a teenager again and I wondered why everybody of all races couldn't get along and why we couldn't have peace forever. Maybe it is too idealistic to think that everyone should put aside their biases and judge fairly without regard to the flash and relatives and partying buds and who helped who or who might help who if they won. Or even as bad as someone splitting prize money with the judge if they won!! Yes, I heard that one several times!! I was going to say that I thought that only people who had contested a while in that caregory and had some expertise in that dance should judge others in the same dance. Like former Championship Men's Fancy should only judge Junior or Teen Fancy. Or maybe only elders who had danced in that Category should judge. Because really, some people really don't know exactly what to look for in the contestants. Yeah, you can grow up in the arena, but if you've danced Southern Traditonal Buckskin your whole life and are asked to judge Women's Jingle....do you really know all the intracacies of the dance. Do you know exactly where the hands should be on a certain beat, do you know exactly how the fan should be held...do you know how to appreciate an old style traditional Jingle dancer without her fan? And I really don't think we should be judging the opposite sex. BUT, I guess I really know that strictly strangers should be judging for fairness. I only hope we are not going to be rewarding poor dancers for the sake of not being biased. I do agree whole-heartedly with Pawnee Scout that we should not be forgetting the core of Women's Cloth and Buckskin...that we should be looking for the truly elegant, the truly graceful, the footwork and how they carry their body, their shawl, their fan and if they are one with the drum and not what knock-out beadwork someone did for them (or they themselves). I know I make some real "glitter-bug" dresses, but I always say to the best dancers that they are so graceful..they will win if they wore a flour sack. Ah-ho!

11-12-2001, 05:41 PM	#42 (permalink)
Takin' Numbers Queen of My Own Universe Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Betwixt a cow pattie and the Blue Mountains Posts: 63	Good post, Cara, and worth the wait!! :D Thanks for your thoughts...and yes dancers (in all categories) should be placed for the reasons you mentioned, absolutely!! I also definitely agree with your comments on men and women judging each other. When tabulating, I always ty to keep the women and men judging with their own respective categories if at all possible. It's a tough job to try to pick people who are "right for the job." I always hope that people will have the integrity to let me know if they are related or biased, or if they don't feel qualified to judge a particular category. Contesting is fun and rewarding...but speaking as a dancer now...I do it for the love and not the money. I do my own beadwork and make my own outfits. I am proud of what I accomplish...and how I look. That should be all that matters, whether you do you own stuff, have friends or family make it...or are lucky enough to get one of Cara's beautiful dresses!! :D Just feel good about yourself!! And...I love the glitter...and just know, it's making it's way "North." In fact, I am planning on using some for my new outfit. So Cara, do you have a good source for rhinestones by any chance?? I understand the metal strung are better than the plastic? Can you give some pointers and observations about using? I would appeciate it!!! THANKSSSSS!!! TN

11-13-2001, 12:52 AM	#43 (permalink)
Kiwehnzii Oldfart Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,871	I thought this topic would never be revived. It is good to talk about stuff like this though. I too agree that the judges should know the styles of dance being judged. Former dancers, current dancers, etc. We must be realistic tho'. Sometimes these northern style dances are offered in the south or vice versa. AD's or HJ's cannot always find these expert judges that are not related. So... we have to do the best that we can. Many times the committees like to give an honorarium to the people who helped with the judging. The HJ's or AD's have to again try to keep the amount of judges to a minimum so that the committee doesn't accumulate a great cost. It's not an easy task - trying to juggle the judges you have and when you have two rounds of competition - not duplicate the judges for the second round. Everyone cannot be pleased with your selection of judges but that's the way it goes. I too am a dancer but I never, ever complain about the judges. I know the tough job that has to be done by the AD's & HJ's. We're the ones who get the flack, get blamed for someone not placing and still have to smile and then have to do it again at another powwow down the road cuz nobody wants to do it. I know a few that tried but only lasted one powwow because they couldn't take the heat. Why do I do it? Honor. I feel very honored that people entrust me with running a fair and honest competition (some - year after year) I average 7-8 powwows per year and I've been doing it for 20 years. I'm turning down some offers now. I'm getting quite content to just dance and visit and just hang out. I figured I've earned it. Ahow.

11-13-2001, 03:54 AM	#44 (permalink)
Mato Winyan Gangster of Love Join Date: Mar 2000 Location: Indiana Posts: 5,497 Blog Entries: 4	Just read over all of the posts, so I have a few comments. About the black buckskin... I have never seen that I did see purple at Parson's Trading Post black powder/rendevous/medieval/powwow(???) type thing. Weird. She was also honored as having a nameing ceremony dang- blang right there in the middle of the arena. They went into how she went on vision quest and blah,blah,blah....Some "Keeper of the Sacred Animals Wolf Woman" type name. Wouldn't have struck me so weird but it was a traditional elder that did the ceremony, not a plastic medicine man. Weird.:Shocked :Scared :Eyepopper :Help ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ This year at St. Francis there was this little gal competeing in buckskin and she also judged. My daughter competed and understepped on the song and immediately removed herself from competition. At the time this gal laughed at my daughter. I was po'd. My daughter didn't care in the least and said it was on her. Well anyway........ they had another round of competition and this little gal dropped part of her regalia and picked it up, went and lined up and eventually won first place.

11-13-2001, 10:39 AM	#45 (permalink)
buckskinlady Southern Buckskin Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Oklahoma and on the pow-wow trail Posts: 115	Mato, That story about the girl that judged and laughed and then was dishonest in her own contest is just shameful!! But good for your daughter!!!! Honesty, integrity and good sportsmanship are worth far more than any prize money!! And of course people notice these things...that other girl will not get away with that stuff somewhere down the road. And Kiwehnzii, I respect your opinions as a seasoned judge. But I know how those people feel who "can't take the heat" and don't want to judge anymore. Every August as part of our Indian Exposition (we just call it the Fair) we put on a Beautiful Indian Baby Contest and they all have to be in regalia. It started out small, but now it is big and we still run it independently with no money from the Fair Board and we raise all our own funds and solicit all our own prizes. We make sure all the kids get something good and we have door prizes, but we definitely have winners and trophies and better prizes for the winners and they get in the newspaper and the Parade. After judging that for a few years and sustaining the wrath of Mothers and Grandmothers of the losers, I absolutely refuse to judge! I would excuse myself if I was related to any kids or if I had made their outfits, but losers always gossiped around that it was rigged. I am the Secretary now on the Beautiful Indian Baby "Board of Directors" and I tabulate the winners and lay the books open right on the table for anyone to protest! We even had a few totally unrelated people (White people) judge some contests and everyone complained that they didn't know what to look for in the regalia or tribal dress. Oh well! You can't please everybody. Ah-ho!

11-13-2001, 03:20 PM	#46 (permalink)
Kiwehnzii Oldfart Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,871	I too use the open book policy. Not many people want to see it tho'. Many years ago this guy who wasn't really an ace dancer asked and I showed him. Not one judge selected him. He was so embarressed. I felt bad for him. Sometimes it's better not to know.:) I'll not post anymore on this topic.

11-13-2001, 04:38 PM	#47 (permalink)
Takin' Numbers Queen of My Own Universe Join Date: Sep 2000 Location: Betwixt a cow pattie and the Blue Mountains Posts: 63	I use the open book policy when tabulating...and encourage any dancer who protests the contest to have a look. Would rather them see their scores (and my tabulation) than to debate how or if they placed. Makes it easier for me, and the facts are the facts...no funny stuff involved. However, recently it was suggested to me by a veteran AD friend of mine it might be best to not reveal the judge names....only the score sheets. He said he has found that too many times people hold grudges against judges that can come back to haunt them or a member of their family at some other contest somewhere down the road. Do you all think judge's identity should be kept anonymous? TN

11-13-2001, 05:27 PM	#48 (permalink)
Kiwehnzii Oldfart Join Date: Mar 2001 Posts: 2,871	I said I wouldn't post again but here I am. In answer to anonymity - definitely YES. Revealing that would cause hard feelings.:(

11-14-2001, 11:02 AM	#49 (permalink)
buckskinlady Southern Buckskin Join Date: Dec 2000 Location: Oklahoma and on the pow-wow trail Posts: 115	Yeah, I agree...no judges names attached to the scores...that would be asking for trouble!

05-14-2003, 11:09 AM	#52 (permalink)
rbees Tiny Tot Dancer Join Date: May 2003 Location: Beautiful Mountains of California Posts: 37	I'm an elder now and when I am asked to be a judge I try to do my best to not just go by the outfits. Some of the people have magnificent outfits and I don't mean this to be mean. ~ but just can not dance at all. Their either too stiff or just way off beat. And it is sad to see that they win only based on their outfits. I look for grace, stamina and if I can see that they are truly "in to" the dance. I hope that makes sense. Well I'm just a Grandmother what do I know. Blessings to you all. :)

05-15-2003, 05:03 PM	#57 (permalink)
N8tive Dreamz Junior Dancer Join Date: Nov 2002 Location: AZ Pos