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Two-cents1 · 02-26-2002, 03:53 PM

I have a member of the Kiowa Gourd Clan on the phone right now, reading the posts to him on this topic. He asked me to post his comments on this discussion since he does not participate in this powwows.com site.

"If women tried to gourd dance like men, it would be extremely disrespectful to everyone concerned. Women in combat is not a recent development. Long time ago, according to the stories we heard, women went on raids with the men and sometimes had to fight in battle (on occasions where they had to defend themselves at their camp when the men were away). Women had their own societies and their dances. According to the story of the red wolf, where the Kiowas got the gourd dance, the red wolf said 'You must do these dances and sing these songs the way I taught you.' If at any time the Kiowa people don't do as the red wolf instructed, then they will lose this dance. That is precisely what is happening now, when gourd dances that take place outside of Carnegie don't adhere to the ways that were given to us, and women dancing alongside the men is another example of how this dance will be lost. In Carnegie, if I see a woman try and dance in that circle alongside the men, I will ask her to leave."

I have to agree with what the gentleman said. I know that this discussion is just that, a discussion on what people's views are on this subject. But I have to wonder about any person, man or woman, who wants to change things that are this way for a reason. A man or woman who is not comfortable with their gender role (or their place as a man or woman) within a tribe needs to look at themselves and figure out why they feel that way, rather than try to force a change in that tribe's ways. If a woman who is a combat veteran wants to gourd dance, then she needs to find something in the dominate (meaning white) society to satisfy her need for "equality" or recognition, or whatever it is she is looking for, because she is not Indian enough to accept her own ways or be respectful of others ways if she tries to force this change for her own personal fulfillment. ****NOTE: my comments apply to ceremonies/ceremonials, NOT powwow dancing or singing, which is a different subject.

(And if a woman is with a real man, then the barefoot and pregnant thing wouldn't apply, because a real man treats people, especially women, with much more respect than that.)

By the way, I don't know of any woman who would want to do this, gourd dance like a man.......Kiowa women would be mortified by the idea.

02-26-2002, 03:53 PM	#27 (permalink)
Two-cents1 Junior Dancer Join Date: May 2001 Location: USA Posts: 105	According to a Kiowa Gourd Clan member.... I have a member of the Kiowa Gourd Clan on the phone right now, reading the posts to him on this topic. He asked me to post his comments on this discussion since he does not participate in this powwows.com site. "If women tried to gourd dance like men, it would be extremely disrespectful to everyone concerned. Women in combat is not a recent development. Long time ago, according to the stories we heard, women went on raids with the men and sometimes had to fight in battle (on occasions where they had to defend themselves at their camp when the men were away). Women had their own societies and their dances. According to the story of the red wolf, where the Kiowas got the gourd dance, the red wolf said 'You must do these dances and sing these songs the way I taught you.' If at any time the Kiowa people don't do as the red wolf instructed, then they will lose this dance. That is precisely what is happening now, when gourd dances that take place outside of Carnegie don't adhere to the ways that were given to us, and women dancing alongside the men is another example of how this dance will be lost. In Carnegie, if I see a woman try and dance in that circle alongside the men, I will ask her to leave." I have to agree with what the gentleman said. I know that this discussion is just that, a discussion on what people's views are on this subject. But I have to wonder about any person, man or woman, who wants to change things that are this way for a reason. A man or woman who is not comfortable with their gender role (or their place as a man or woman) within a tribe needs to look at themselves and figure out why they feel that way, rather than try to force a change in that tribe's ways. If a woman who is a combat veteran wants to gourd dance, then she needs to find something in the dominate (meaning white) society to satisfy her need for "equality" or recognition, or whatever it is she is looking for, because she is not Indian enough to accept her own ways or be respectful of others ways if she tries to force this change for her own personal fulfillment. ****NOTE: my comments apply to ceremonies/ceremonials, NOT powwow dancing or singing, which is a different subject. (And if a woman is with a real man, then the barefoot and pregnant thing wouldn't apply, because a real man treats people, especially women, with much more respect than that.) By the way, I don't know of any woman who would want to do this, gourd dance like a man.......Kiowa women would be mortified by the idea.